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Praying with Women Pastors
Posted by David Rogers in Baptist Life, Bible & Theology, Church & Missions
Let me get this out of the way right off the bat. Most of you who read this blog on a regular basis should already be aware that I am a convinced complementarian, and I do not believe that women ought to occupy the role of elder/bishop/pastor in a local church. I agree with everything the Baptist Faith & Message 2000 has to say about this issue.
Having said that…
A good friend of mine recently told me about a prayer meeting he had been a part of in which believers from various churches and denominations came together to pray for revival in their community and in our country. He said the turnout was good. There was even a woman pastor present. That got me to thinking. It reminded me of several times during my missionary ministry in Spain in which I was put into situations in which I was called upon to pray together with women pastors.
Now, I am aware that for some readers who come from a different background, the very fact that I would find praying with a woman pastor something worthy of writing about may seem a bit strange. But some of you who come from similar backgrounds may well identify with me when I say that I have not had occasion very often to pray together with women pastors, and that, on those occasions when I have, I have felt a bit awkward.
Now, just to be clear, I am not talking about intimate one-on-one prayer with someone of the opposite sex. As my dad, Adrian Rogers, says, in the What Every Pastor Ought to Know pastor training course, it is generally not a good idea to be regular prayer partners, in this sense, with people of the opposite sex. It can lead to a type of spiritual intimacy that we should reserve for our spouses alone.
But, from time to time, there have been occasions in my life in which a group of God’s people got together, and not everyone present was from exactly the same theological background, and, in unity, as the Body of Christ, we prayed together, sometimes in small groups, sometimes two by two, etc. Now, in my life, in contexts like this, I have prayed with a lot of different people from a lot of different backgrounds, and not felt awkward at all. That has been a great blessing.
So, why should I feel awkward praying with a woman pastor? Thinking it over, if I am honest, I suppose it is because the particular issue of women as pastors has been such an emotionally charged issue in the circles in which I have run that I have some sort of a complex about it. I have this image in my mind of a woman pastor as the next closest thing to a full-blown heretic.
Now, when I am in my right frame of mind, I realize this is not really the case. Rationally, I know there are many women pastors who are bona fide born-again sisters in Christ and dedicated servants of God. I may not agree with their particular interpretation of certain passages of Scripture. And, I may even feel they have wrongly interpreted God’s call in their life. But that doesn’t mean they are not my sisters in Christ. And, it does not mean they love God and serve God any less sincerely than I do.
Okay, so where am I going with this? I am NOT suggesting that we, as Southern Baptists, messed up on the issue of women pastors when we took the stances that we did during the Conservative Resurgence. I believe that denominations, networks of churches, and parachurch ministries may legitimately define themselves according to criteria that are not one and the same as those which define membership in the broader Body of Christ. There are certain issues on which fellow believers may disagree that, while not causing a strict division in the Body, make it difficult for them to work together on this or that.
On this particular case in point, it is impossible for a church to have women pastors and, at the same time, not have women pastors. In addition to that, though not entirely impossible, it is difficult for a church made up of members—some who believe in women pastors, and some who do not—to function together harmoniously and productively. Though they may all be able to get along as long as the pastors happen to be men, once the first woman pastor is recognized or appointed, those with a conviction that women should not be pastors will face a crisis of conscience. Can they recognize as their pastor someone they believe is not biblically qualified to be a pastor? Would it not be better to allow those who believe Scripture allows for women pastors to continue in one congregation and for those who don’t to join together in another congregation? You could study the Bible together and try to come to a consensus. But, in real life, unfortunately, it usually doesn’t work out that way.
Extrapolate this out further, and, in a fellowship of churches like the SBC, you have the same dynamic, only on a wider basis. As a group of churches, you can either support the pastorate of women or not support it, but it is hard to do both at the same time. Once you allow for Cooperative Program funds to go toward the advance of one cause or the other, you are yielding to the convictions of one side, and violating the conscience of the other.
So, what is the solution? Those with strong convictions one way or the other need to find a group with whom they can cooperate that accommodates their convictions. That is a natural result of freedom of religion. We all need to be free to live our religious life in accordance with our personal convictions, and not be forced to capitulate to the convictions of others.
Now, none of this means that in order to cooperate together we all have to be in lock-step agreement on every issue. There are certain issues we agree on as deal-breakers, and others we agree are not. For instance, for us as Southern Baptists, believers baptism is one of these issues. Our view of the millennium is not. It doesn’t mean our list of deal-breakers is the perfect list, though. Other groups have other lists of deal-breakers. The Evangelical Free Church, for instance, has some leeway in their doctrinal statement regarding the necessity of believers baptism. But, at the same time, they officially define themselves as pre-millennial in their eschatology. For some on both sides of the question, the pastorate of women is a deal-breaker. For others, not so much.
There is, however, another question at stake. I personally believe that many of those who accept the pastorate of women do so because of a low view of the inspiration of Scripture. And those who have a low view of Scripture do so because they are not truly submitted to the Lordship of Christ. Thus, there are some who accept woman pastors because they are not truly believers. So, this is an issue that may, on certain occasions, have something to do with unity within the Body.
But… there are also those who believe in the legitimacy of women pastors who do not have a low view of the inspiration of Scripture. Call it sloppy hermeneutics. Call it cultural blindness. Call it what you will. If I am honest, I must admit that not every one who believes in the pastorate of women does so because they believe the Bible is not the authoritative Word of God, or because they are just being disobedient to what they know the Bible really teaches.
So, what does that mean? I believe it means that, as long as I don’t have specific evidence to conclude that someone is not truly submitted to the Lordship of Christ, or that they are living in unrepentant disobedience, I must embrace them as my brother or sister in Christ, and treat them in all the ways the Bible enjoins me to treat someone who is a true brother or sister in Christ. At the very least, that means being willing to pray together.
Does it mean planting churches together? Not necessarily. A lot of that will depend on how strong my convictions are and how strong someone else’s convictions are on this issue.
Where all this comes full circle, though, is that in a lot of the places in which the IMB works, there are a number of evangelical Christians who accept women as pastors. And, I don’t know if I’m letting the cat out of the bag here—but, in a lot of places, the local Baptist conventions/unions accept women pastors. And, if we as Southern Baptists are convictional complementarians (and the great majority of current Southern Baptists are), we may well find it hard to plant churches together with someone who believes in women pastors, without compromising on our convictions.
What do we do? Do we separate ourselves and pretty much do our own thing only with those who think the same way we do, even though, in some places, these are few and far between? Hopefully not. But, if we are not allowed to preach and teach in accordance with our convictions, that may well be the only alternative.
But I think there may be a better way forward. I think we need to look for common ground wherever we can find it. I think we need to be clear, to the degree possible, on who is truly a brother or sister in Christ, and who is not. And, when we come to a place where other true believers don’t see eye to eye with us on this or that, we need to communicate to them that, even though we may not agree with them on some particular issue, we still accept them and embrace them as authentic brothers and sisters in Christ. We hold to our convictions. And, when we have opportunity to teach or preach, we teach or preach in accordance with our convictions. But we don’t wear our controversial convictions on our sleeve. We deal with them gently and humbly as they come up naturally. But we don’t compromise on what we understand the Word of God to teach.
In a lot of contexts around the world, finding the right balance on this is going to take a lot of wisdom. In some places, it is going to take a lot of tact. Who knows? This approach may even lead us, from time to time, to pray together with women pastors. And that is not necessarily a bad thing.
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“But we don’t wear our controversial convictions on our sleeve. We deal with them gently and humbly as they come up naturally.”
I read this and what comes to mind is Sheri Klouda. I don’t know who ‘we’ is. I’m sure you are very exclusive. But she was hurt, as was her family, which cannot be denied, nor should it be.
She has forgiven and moved on. But when posts like this are written, please know that your readers have not forgotten her.
Christiane,
Thanks for your comment. I am not exactly sure how this post relates to Sheri Klouda. Last I checked, she was not a woman pastor, nor publicly in support of woman pastors. And, from what I gathered when her case was a big issue in the news and on the blogs, I think I would agree with you that “she was hurt, as was her family, which cannot be denied, nor should it be.” But that, as I understand it, is beside the point in regard to what I am talking about here.
And, yes, some people would consider my viewpoint to be very exclusive. It is what it is. I am doing my best to be faithful to the Word of God as I understand it. Some others, however, would consider my view to not be exclusive enough. It is to those people, more than anything else, that this post is primarily directed.
The main point is we can be in disagreement on certain points of interpretation, even strong disagreement, and yet still live in unity, and treat each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.
Good post, David.
We can maintain our convictions and also unite on certain issues and for certain purposes.
Excellent as always.
Thanks! Very well said. This is something I feel very strongly about, but have not said much about because I was sure how to say it with grace.
Great article!
Thanks for this post. Do you have any thoughts about all the levels of cooperation between praying together and church planting together? For IMB workers in particular, how far can cooperation w/ women pastors generally go?
Troysko,
That’s kind of a complicated a question. I have written earlier about related issues here:
http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2006/05/historical-documents-baptist_29.html
http://sbcimpact.org/2009/04/01/planting-churches-together/
As I mentioned on this post today, I think when others would obligate us to teach or preach something that is not in accordance with our own convictions (no women pastors, in the case of the BF&M), that makes certain type of cooperation very difficult. But I think there are certain situations where I think people who come down on both sides of this issue can peacefully coexist, and even effectively cooperate in certain ministry projects. You would probably have to evaluate this on a case by case basis.
Another issue is we cannot (and to a certain extent, should not) control decisions made by autonomous congregations once they have already been planted. But, I think that, as IMB workers, we should do our best to gently and humbly communicate our convictions, and our biblical reasons for holding them. After that, it is up to national believers to come to their own conclusions. If they come to conclusions different than our own, that doesn’t mean we have to break off the relationship, though.
Very well said, David. I serve as the palliative care and hospice chaplain for a large and growing hospital system on the coast of South Carolina near Myrtle Beach. I find myself in a constant holy tension between cooperating with others who claim the Name of Christ who are not at ALL like me and standing firm on my convictions. I have found it is possible. My organization gives me great freedom to share my faith(it is a private non profit, but not a “Christian” one) when someone asks me. And frankly, since I began this job November 1, I have led eight people to the Lord within days, some within hours, of their death. But I couldn’t begin those conversations with exclusivity. But we ended with Jesus being the ONLY way. I also serve as chaplain for the Third Brigade of the SC State Guard, another place where I must work with others of different faiths.
I claim Mid America Baptist Theological Seminary as my theological home. I graduated from there and consider Gray Allison, Roy Beaman and Corky Farris some of my theological mentors. And I could talk about your Dad and his influence on me for hours. One funny story about Reginald Bernard who taught there who retired from Spurgeon’s College. He said “women preachers are like dancing dogs. They don’t do it very well, but you are surprised they can do it at all.” We nearly fell out of our desks that day….
I encourage my brothers and sisters to LOVINGLY stand FIRMLY. And realize that certain differences can add spice to our fellowship instead of merely dividing us…
David,
Interesting article. I haven’t had much experience with women pastors in the States, but I have encountered it some overseas (with pentecostal groups).
I have a question. Is there a difference between a woman who errantly believes she should be a pastor and a man who errantly believes a committed homosexual relationship is not condemned in the Bible? How does your article apply to this second situation?
Kirby, Thanks for your input on this, and for your service to the Lord. What a privilege to be able to lead folks to the Lord on their deathbed! I’m trying to remember, I think we may have coincided at MABTS a year or two. I was there from ’83 to ’84, and then again from ’86 to ’87, before transferring and graduating from SWBTS in summer ’89.
We were. I was there in toto from August of 1984 to December of 1989. I crammed that three year degree into five and a half. I worked and either served on a church staff or pastored the entire time, so it took me a little longer. I told Dr. Gray that they should add one more semester and give us all a doctorate there. The only time I really got to hear your Dad in person other than at seminary was his Thursday business luncheons. I would schedule my academics around them when I could. Thank God for the impact he had on us at Mid America.
Andrew,
Very good question, and one that requires a very careful answer.
Here are my first thoughts. I realize there are those who attempt to make an exegetical case for the legitimacy of committed homosexual relationships, but, for me, the hermeneutical argument is such a stretch, it doesn’t even merit being taken seriously. I am also firmly convinced the Bible does not permit women to be elders/bishops/pastors, but I have a bit more respect for the hermeneutical argument of SOME (not all) of the folks who arrive at this position. Also, we have to be careful about judging the intents of other people’s hearts, without knowing what is inside them. But, it seems to me there are a lot more people who are sincerely convinced women are biblically permitted to be pastors, who are just trying to follow the dictates of their own conscience, than there are those who justify homosexual relationships. First Peter 2:1 talks about false teachers who secretly bring in destructive heresies. If I had to try to subjectively classify the level of destructiveness of different heresies, I think I would classify the justification of homosexual relationships as more destructive than permitting someone who sincerely thinks they are serving God, and fulfilling God’s call in their life, to mistakenly serve as a pastor. But, then again, I imagine there are those who would argue that permitting women pastors has just as much potential, in the long run, for being destructive, in the overall scheme of things. In my thinking right now, I am not totally convinced that is the case, though.
Here’s another way to say it. I find it hard to imagine Paul including “woman pastors” in the list of those who “will not inherit the kingdom of God,” even if he were writing in a context in which that practice were widespread.
1 Cor. 6:9–11. “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
All that being said, I would very much welcome the input of anyone else who could help me think a little more clearly about this. It is, admittedly, a difficult question.
David,
A thought provoking post….
I have always took the position,..and one that you hint at in the article, in that scripture is appropriately clear in how the church is to be led by men. The lack of men leaders and/or the perception of a man’s lack of capabilities to lead have had impact throughout biblical history in instances where a woman will feel the need to lead. And no doubt some woman lead much better than men. Yet, the tradition is clear, at least from what we learn from Christ and the Apostles, that men are designed to lead the congregation. There is an exhaustive list of why’s that accompany that tradition.
As far as praying with a woman that has been ordained by an organization or is a self proclaimed pastor…. is an interesting situation. I personally would not have any problem praying with this woman, or her leading in prayer. I would though feel the need to teach or at least address the odd tradition of with her and others at some point, only because the congregation may become confused with the responsibilities spelled out in scripture for those that serve one another in the congregation.
Good article,
Blessings,
Chris
Dave,
As a layman, I would definantly have a struggle with this one. One example is: There is a “leadership” that comes with the position of pastor. It is much different than the “influence” a woman would have toward her husband in 1 Peter 3:1 and the pastor’s lead-by-example type of influence in 1 Peter 5:3. Mixing the gender qualities of either position causes a disruption in what is being said or preached.
“Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played?” 1 Cor 14:7
Though I would not disrupt a prayer meeting, I would avoid the place where it may occur.
Well presented, Dave. Thank you.
Bruce,
If the purpose of a meeting (implied or explicit) were to promote a doctrine with which I am not in agreement (such as the legitimacy of women pastors), I would probably stay away as well (unless I was just curious to see what was going on).
However, if it is a gathering of folks who share a common relationship with the Father, Son & Holy Spirit, and who agree on a common gospel, and the purpose is to seek God, and promote the gospel, I see no reason why we should shy away from sharing fellowship, and praying together, even though we may differ with some of them on this or that. What joins us together is much more important than those things on which we differ.
Dear Sir: You really need to cut off all fellowship with most of the Southern Baptist Churches which can be traced back to any relationship with Sandy Creek Church and Association…as they had Eldresses who exhoted the congregation in the 1700s. One of the eldresses was Martha Stearns Marshall, sister of Elder shubal Stearns and Wife of Daniel Marshall who founded the oldest continuing Baptist Church in Ga. One of the first converts of the Marshall’s was Samuel Cartledge who was converted as a result of arresting Elder Marshall and the preching of Martha Stearns Marshall to him for doing such a thing. Samuel became a minister after his conversion and served for over 50 years. I reconstructed the case as the records for Sandy Creek Church and Association were burned in a fire around 1801. My address on the subject, “The Genius of Orthodoxy: Eldresses.” Their approach then was based on the verbal inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible. Read Matthew Poole on I Tim.2:11ff. Most people have a problem with the Bible due to their study method, a reflection of the problem with our present day scientific method which suffers from being too analytical, one-sided, and unable to cope with two-sided situations and ideas which appear to be contradictory. If a woman was never allowed to be an instructive position vis-a-vis man, ABrahama would have never been told to do what Sarah said about Hagar. Most reactions today to women in ministry or in positions of authority grow out of the reaction to radical feminism. One once called me a Male Chauvinist pig. Another tried the same on a friend of mine who had been a Sargeant in the military and who was actually friendly toward females on the issue of ministry, but it was a mistake. He roared in his best Sargeant’s voice, “Woman, if you every gave call me that, I’ll knock your teeth down your throat.” She turnd white, almost fainted, and ran from the building.
Our problem with fundamentalism today is that we do not understand the two-sidedness of old orthodoxy.
James,
My main intention in this post is not to make the biblical case against women pastors. Many pages of research and discussion have already been dedicated to that elsewhere. Yes, my current understanding is that the NT does not allow for women pastors. But I must remain subject to the Word of God, and continually do my best to understand it better.
In any case, my point is that disagreement with other true believers on this point DOES NOT necessitate a breach of fellowship. Does it put obstacles in front of certain types of cooperation? Certainly. There is no way around this. But deciding not to cooperate on certain ministry projects does not have to entail, at the same time, a breach of fellowship.
From this perspective, I think the term “disfellowship,” as it is commonly used in Southern Baptist circles, is unfortunate. Our fellowship, as I understand it, is with the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, and with all those who also share the same relationship as us with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
In other words, if she were alive today, I would have no problem praying and fellowshipping with Martha Stearns Marshall. But if she wanted to insist that I, or my church, contribute money toward the promotion of female pastors/elders/bishops, I would have to say, thanks, but no thanks. I will give my money and my time to efforts taken on by those who understand Scripture the same way I do on this one.
Dave,
First, please understand I am not educated the way most of you are. With that, am I to understand that a woman that “claims” to be called by either the Holy Spirit or God to an office that does not exist can continue fellowship with those who know it is not an office for women? Would God answer a prayer from a person who is contradicting Him? Basically, a woman is saying she has heard from God that He has called her to an office that God has been expressly appointed to a man. Wouldn’t that fall closer to heresy than a difference of opinion? I mean this in a nice way and I need a better understanding of why I would pray with such a person.
Bruce,
Thanks for your question, and the humble attitude with which you ask it. I am not infallible, or the last word on anything. But, here is my take…
I think we must come to the Bible with the attitude that none of us are infallible interpreters. It is true the Bible is clear enough for us to understand what we need to understand. But, at the same time, if we are honest, there is always room for growth in our understanding. And, some things that seem perfectly clear to me may not seem so clear to someone else.
If I am understanding James correctly here, for example, he understands this particular point of the Word of God differently than I do. Yet, from all I can tell, he is an authentic, bona fide, child of God and servant of God.
Now, when we all get to heaven, I may find out James was right, and I was wrong. Or, James may find out I was right, and he was wrong. Or, we may both find out we were both wrong, and someone else was right. But, for now, I am convinced I am right on this particular matter. But I must be willing to admit that it is not being right or wrong on this particular issue that saves us. It is God’s grace offered to us by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. And we receive that grace by faith, which is taking God at His Word.
Now, if the reason someone believes women can be pastors is they are not really taking God at His Word, then, perhaps, there is no basis for true fellowship. But, if they are taking God at His word, both for salvation, as well as for matters like the possibility of women pastors, then I must accept them, just as Christ accepts me, even though I may be mistaken on this or that (Rom. 14:1, 15:7).
I must, to the best of my ability, seek to discern what is in my brother or sister’s heart. If it seems they are sincerely seeking to be obedient to the Word of God, but are just mistaken on this or that, I must accept them, while gently trying to correct their understanding, being humble enough, at the same time, to admit I may be wrong, and they may need to correct my understanding. If there is good reason to believe they are not sincerely seeking to submit themselves to the Word of God, that is a different matter.
I believe the following verses from 1 Timothy come into play here:
“Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality. Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor take part in the sins of others; keep yourself pure… The sins of some men are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later. So also good works are conspicuous, and even those that are not cannot remain hidden.”
1 Timothy 5:19–25
In other words, the true intentions of some are conspicuous, but those of others are not. When they are not, we must be forbearing, and not judge their motives ahead of time.
As a woman, I disagree with the notion that women cannot be pastors. Not because I know a lot about the bible, but because I believe men and women are equal. God would never make one sex subservient to the other, I am sure.
And it’s not because being a pastor is such a privilege and women should not be barred from that. Being a leader in the church is being a servant leader. It’s more about the idea that women cannot receive that gift. Why? And what does it lead to? I had a friend when I was young who, as we were picking out captains for a game we were about to play, insisted that she would not be captain because women should not lead men. And you may not think it, but this is the kind of thinking that relegates women to the back room or the kitchen.
I grew up in a country where women are oppressed. I was disrespected and degraded many times. But I am in college now, I don’t feel strongly for myself so much as I feel strongly for women who are regularly mistreated. And I have tasted their pain.
I read another article on this website about how maybe women could be deaconesses, and one of the commenters basically said that while a woman could do great in the nursery, that doesn’t make her a leader in the church.
But women don’t belong in the nursery, or the kitchen, or on committees related to such things. Because believe it or not, not all women like children. Their own, sure, if they have them. Not all women are natural mothers or should be mothers. Not all women can cook. Not all women are made to watch from the sidelines, or be just “followers”. These are stereotypes. Not all men are natural fathers, or natural leaders, or great with cars. I know women who are made to be leaders. As for what God wants for the life of a female pastor, she probably knows that better than you.
I don’t know greek or hebrew and I can’t really arm myself with verses here. I only feel strongly, as a woman, that this is wrong. In the new world, when this one has ended, I’m sure that God will reveal what men and women were truly supposed to be.
In the mean time, even though my family works for the IMB, I have seen to much of the world to put men or women in a box. I stopped attending southern baptist churches for many reasons, but this is one of them.
I am constantly confused about what I am meant to be, and I know that life isn’t fair, but it’s not really about fairness, I want to battle darkness. The same darkness that said, in the days before Shakespeare, that women did not have souls, and were like animals. The darkness that says women, unlike men, lead to the destruction of man kind. And the darkness that says women are perpetual children, that belong in their homes.
I really don’t know what is truly right, but I cannot ignore the internal screaming that this is definitely wrong. That you would not even feel comfortable praying with a woman pastor seems disrespectful, and this cannot be the way men and women are supposed to be. And I may seem misguided, but I only want the truth, about what women, and men, are in the kingdom of God.
Luthien,
Let me say, first of all, that I believe there is much truth in what you have written. I totally agree with you that God is dead set opposed to women being oppressed, disrespected and degraded. And, even though you may not know Greek or Hebrew, there is indeed a sense of what is right and what is wrong that God has placed inside of us, and sexism and chauvinism is wrong.
Having said that, I think that God has also revealed His will to us by way of His Word. As humans, our sense of right and wrong is not infallible, but His Word is. At the same time, our understanding of His revealed will in His Word is not infallible either. That is why we must approach His Word with a humble, teachable spirit, whether we know Greek and Hebrew, or not.
As I understand the teaching of the Word of God on this point, women and men are indeed equal in regard to their ultimate worth. Also, God gifts women to be leaders, and men to be leaders. He gifts women with public speaking ability, and gifts men with public speaking ability.
However, as I understand it, submission is not the same thing as subservience, or at least not in the way that word is often used, with its corresponding connotations.
Jesus Himself is submitted to God the Father. But He is in no way inferior, in regard to His value, giftedness, or the things He is called upon to do.
The problem is that, so many times, we as humans have taken biblical submission, which is a beautiful thing, and through sin, have distorted it, and transformed it into chauvinism and abuse.
I agree that it is wrong that I would not feel comfortable praying with a woman pastor. That is a big point behind what I was trying to say. That was a moment of confession, and seeking God’s grace.
It’s just, as I seek to understand God’s Word, and God’s will, it is best for men to occupy the role of pastor in a local church.
Also, by the way, I was also the one who wrote the post on female deacons. As I understand Scripture, it teaches something different on the possibility of women deacons and women pastors.
In any case, I hope my understanding of the Word of God on this point doesn’t cause me to treat you as inferior, or come between our fellowship as brother and sister in Christ.
The real problem with the 2000 BFM and the stand against women in ministry is that it really springs more out of the rancor produced by the enmity of radical feminists. I remember having one of those dear ladies call me a male chauvinist pig which utterly shocked me into silence as I had said nothing critical to her. later I found out that the dear ladies had planned many such capers among the students of SEBTS in the early-mid seventies. One, however, made the mistake of saying it to a former Sargeant from the Air Force. The truth was that he was in the moderate camp. However, he did not particularly like being called names. So he roared in best Sargeant’s voice, “Lady, if you ever again call me that, I will knock your teeth down your throat.” The lady in question turned white, and ran, shaking, from the building. I jsut about died laughing, when I heard his response, because she had insulted someone who was more on her side than she imagined. There is no excuse for for discourtesy.
Now as to women in ministry. There are women who perfomed ministries, because they believed God appointed them to do so. I understand that Lottie once was asked if she had been ordained (due to her performing some ministerial function, I suppose), and she repliedm, “I was never ordained, but I was foreordained.” I know of two missionaries, one, a conservative man, to Honduras who founed about 16 churches and another, a woman, who went to Japan with the Occupation forces and there established 10 churches, always seeing to it that men were trained and appointed as pastors. She put her life on the line, once eating raw fish heads, contrary to the advice of health officials, as she knew she would never get another chance at witnessing to one Japanese man, if her refusal of the offered food gasve him the feeling of a loss of face. That woman was a Bible believing, godly, Christian missionary, who supported her self while working for the occupation. she was a bi-vocational missionary like William Carey.
Another lady established a church and gave it to the Southern Baptists. The local Assn. told her that it would never be acknowledged that she had founded the church. It is a right good sized church in a resort area. That lady was of Cherokee Indian descendant (as was her husband), and had been a visitor for a strong church in a metropolitian area. Her son was in Greek class with me at a local college. She witnessed to some 10,000 people during her service to that church as visitor. A close student of the word of God, she merely smiled when her son and I sought to dissuade her from any ministry at all due to our belief that a woman’s place was only in the home. I spoke with an independent Sovereign Grace Baptist Preacher who preached a revival for her some 20-30 years ago. That she was a good, godly woman, I have no doubt.
As to the matter at hand, Southern Baptists will have to allow for differences on this issue as anyone can read the original about whoever desires the office of a bishop and find that the original allows for anyone, male or female. If it had been limited to males only, why didn’t Paul use the masculine form? Besides you also have the fact that the aged women could just as easily be rendered “eldresses.” If God meant that women were to obey men, absolutely, why did He leave in Genesis the testimony that a good old Southern Baptist arminian type preacher, one educated in local bible schools, called to my attention with these rather forceful words, “Don’t you believe the Bible? Did you ever read where God told man to do what the woman said…God told Abraham to do what Sarah said about Hagar?” Ouch! Male leadership is limited by such truths as family equality, brothers and sisters are not to Lord it over one another. A friend once threw it up to me that no woman is ever named as a leader…until I answered back about God’s saying concerning Moses, Aaron, and Miriam (Micah 6:4). And how in the world did we get a bunch of prophetesses in the Old and New Testaments? And why was Mary Magdalene called the Apostle to the Apostles in the early church? Shall we jettison Sandy Creek Assn. and all who sprang from it due to their infraction of our rule. After all, this is not a first line issue like the inspiration and inerrancy of scripture, or the deity and humanity of Christ, etc. And the Sandy Creek leaders were men converted in the First Great Awakening and the churches they founded enjoyed the blessing of the Second Great Awakening and then helped Luther Rice to launch the Great Century of Missions. True, they dropped the eldresses issue due to the union of the Separates and Regulars in Va. in 1787 (nothing was really said about the issue in much of any way), but Sandy Creek assn. always had a more liberal practice in this matter. Shall we kick them out? We have never had even one great awakening, though I know of people who have been praying for one for years, we need to learn how to be balanced, flexible, creative, and magnetic to win the multitudes, even every last soul on the face of the earth in one generation and then for 999 more generations. After all, the old limited atonement man himself, Dr. John Owen, suggested that such particular redemptive atonement had a sufficiency of merit to atone for the sins of a 1000 worklds. could that suggest the possibility of a number in heaven that God in good humor said no one could number in Revelation?