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Israeli Settlements, Vetoes, and the Kingdom of God
Posted by Strider in Baptist Life, Bible & Theology, IMPACT Features, News & Culture
Recently the United States blocked a security council resolution on declaring new Israeli settlements illegal. I imagine that most Americans approve of this, my concern is why? I think that sometimes we act on what we do not think through. To me this is no where more apparent than in our tacit acceptance that the nation state of Israel represents God’s chosen people and therefore should be supported to do whatever they want. If we consider the question for a moment we quickly realize that God never supported the people of Israel to do whatever they wanted. If God had some expectations that His chosen people should do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God then why should we not expect the same? I will leave aside for the moment whether the nation state of Israel represents God’s chosen people or not.
A couple of years ago I watched an interview on CNN (it may have been the BBC, but I am pretty sure it was CNN). They had a pastor who was very pro-Israel with a very strong dispensational agenda. They brought in a young Arab Christian and the pastor got really uncomfortable. Basically in the end, the pastor had to admit- though he did not want to- that he wanted the Arab fellow follower of Jesus to lose his home, his job, his way of life, everything to make room for a zionist state. He was not comfortable admitting the results of his theology but I had to admire the fact that he didn’t back down. I wish he would have and for the right reasons but he didn’t and the Arab believer was left with the accurate impression that if he wanted someone to defend him and encourage him he could not count on the this man.
When I was a pastor in West Virginia- many years ago now- I went to a prayer meeting down in Virginia with a bunch of men. It was a good meeting and we prayed together for hours. This was a good group of men, most them Southern Baptists, who were seeking God. As we were leaving one of the men told me in an excited voice that he believed the temple would be rebuilt in Jerusalem soon and that a man down in Louisiana was trying to breed the same kind of red heifers that they had when the original temple was built so that they could make the proper sacrifices. Perhaps my new friend saw the look on my face because he added, ‘What do you think of that?’ I told him what he already knew but apparently had momentarily forgotten; that the sacrifice has already been made by Jesus himself and no more sacrifices would be needed nor wanted. I told him that the temple may be rebuilt and if it is it will surely be a sign of the times but that it would not be ‘the Lord’s’ temple. We are that already. If it is rebuilt it will be a pagan temple to a pagan god. A sign to be sure, but not a good one and no place we need to be.
Red heifers? Man can we stay sidetracked.
I have been reading through Matthew (I just got the movie The Gospel of Matthew and it is very interesting but I don’t like it near as much as the Gospel of John movie). As Jesus walks along teaching he explains why the disciples don’t eat with washed hands. He says that if your right hand or eye causes you to sin you should cut it off or tear it out. He says we should lay treasure up in heaven. He promises his followers that life will be difficult and that persecutions will come. He asked them to beat the rush and take up their crosses and follow him. This does not sound like someone who is interested in earthly temples or nation states. This guy is not wanting you to have your best life now and he is not concerned what governments do or don’t do. Jesus believes in the resurrection. We all should and we should all act like we do. People who believe in the resurrection don’t lay up treasure on earth and don’t get sidetracked by earthly things. People who believe in the resurrection spend their time loving God and others well because it is God and our souls that are eternal.
So, to make my point clear I don’t think we should support the nation state of Israel other than to pray for the salvation of Jewish people and their peace just like we should pray for Egyptian peoples salvation and peace and every other lost people group that Jesus has sent us to find. I find the ‘God’s chosen people’ rhetoric out of place in the new covenant. We are the chosen people not some nation state, every child of God who lays down his life to follow our Savior is His chosen people and together we make up the Kingdom of God which has no borders and One Lord. If the Jewish people are God’s people then whose are the Arabs? Is there another god named Allah that they belong to? I know you don’t believe that. There is one God and we are all His children. In the end, many will remain lost and refuse to acknowledge him as God and give Him the glory He deserves. They will be punished not because He punishes someone else’s people but because they are His people to deal with.
I am not naive about the complexities of the Middle East problem. I know that the Palestinians are in a horrific mess because some Arab leaders want to use them to get at Israel. There should be no ‘refugee’ camps. These people should have been helped to have their own places a long time ago but outside forces would not let them. Israel has done no better. They took in battle what is now the occupied territories and they have done little to improve the lives of the people who are now their citizens there because they are not Jewish. That is racism. It is unjust and God specifically asked the Jews in the Old Testament not to do that. They are to care for the alien and stranger in their land. They have not. I know it is difficult but being hard is no excuse to act unjustly. But I am sure of this: the church’s message should be one of salvation offered to all peoples and if we fail to stand up for those who are being abused then we forfeit our message.
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The Middle East and its problems are not complex. They can be boiled down to this:
A: One side wants to live in peace and is willing to negotiate land for peace – it has done so in the past, and has been willing even to this day to do so – all they want is to live in peace with their neighbors – but will not apologize for protecting themselves from annihilation with overwhelming force. Question Strider: How was it that this side gained land through battle? Or are you unfamiliar with history?
B: One side wants the other dead. Always has. The rhetoric from rich to poor, from popular literature, school textbooks, and television broadcasts continue to propagate such. Finis. Hence we have even young children putting on suicide vests and walking into pizzerias. I pray that this view does not always hold practically universal sway, but currently I have only my prayers, and the reality of the return of Jesus.
Regardless of one is a proponent of dispensational or covenant theology, I would hope that we would take our glasses off and see things the way they are. How is it that the oppressed peoples of the Middle East remain oppressed? It is not Israel, nor the existence of the state of Israel that these people remain oppressed. The Palestinian people are not oppressed because Israel builds settlements in Jerusalem. Let’s get real here. They are oppressed because they are held by a blind hatred fueled from outside and from a bewitching and oppresive enemy spawned religion.
And what nation state in the world can you point to that does not have an obligation to provide the means to build houses wherever it wishes? Can you name one? I would like to know. Why does Israel in your opinion not have the right to do so?
Rob
Strider,
Thank you. This is a much needed encouragement at a much needed time.
God bless you.
Rob is a brother, but his reply is dense with its own generalizations and misunderstandings that I pray are dismissed. May our Palestinian brothers and sisters forgive us. May peacable Muslims forgive us for speaking this way. And may the angry in Palestine crumble over the wonder of Hebrews 11.
Thank you, Strider.
Patrick is a brother as well – but condescending
dense talk is just an ad hominem, and below “brother” discussions. Patrick – this is a discussion forum. I was specific – you just called me “uniformed” – in what manner am I uninformed? I don’t know anything – educate me. What did I get wrong? Fill in the blanks.
In example: How many “peaceable” Muslims speak openly? Shucks, not many on Arabic broadcasts. How many openly advocate for peace with Israel and an openness to its existence? This dense guy wants to know.
I find my brother I must dismiss your naivete and willful blindness to the obvious.
Godspeed.
Rob
I imagine that most Americans approve of this, my concern is why?
So, to make my point clear I don’t think we should support the nation state of Israel…
Let’s see here, why would we support Israel? Hmmm, well, how many Jewish children are sent into schools, buses and other public places with bombs strapped to them? Zero. Ok, well how many Jewish people have hijacked planes and flew them into buildings, killing thousands of people? That would be “none”. Yeah, America shouldn’t support those troublemakers over in Israel. They just leave death and destruction in their wake.
(/sarcasm)
It is painfully obvious and clear to anyone with a lick of sense who the good guys are over there and who our enemies are. What America really needs to do is tell Israel “We appologize for telling you that you must show restraint against your enemies. As of today, take the gloves off. We will no longer interfere in your defense of your own soverign nation.” If we really cared about peace in the middle east, we’d also offer to help.
Rob: Should not our goal as Christians and Southern Baptists to be Biblical? And as Strider asked, what of the Arab Christians of which there are many and growing. What about them? I do not see that mentioned in your post anywhere.
In what way did my post reflect an unbiblical view Debbie? If it is an anti-NCT posting (by inference only) then I am guilty – in what way am I invalidating Ezekial 36,37, and 38? Be specific. What about my Arab Christian brothers and sisters? They have a lot safer home in the environs of Israel than in any Muslim country today.
Shalom.
Rob
Rob: The answer you gave to my question concerning Christian Arabs would in my opinion an answer to why I believe you are not interpreting scripture properly. I also believe Strider answered your question quite well in his post concerning the New Covenant.
Israel is not a Christian nation. They have rejected the Messiah. They also have done their share of wrongs in this long war. Yet many Christians seem to overlook this because they are Israel. Wrong is wrong, sin is sin and they are unregenerate except for those who have Christ as their Savior. Arab Christians are growing in number yet not one word is said in support of them.
Strider,
I agree that we should weigh Israel’s actions against Scripture. Neither Israel, nor the U.S., nor any other country should be free from question. While I would argue that Israel has prophetic significance, so did Babylon, and they were judged for what they did to Israel and the other nations, even though God ordained it!
In regard to Israel, I think a nation has a wide berth for enacting and enforcing law, so merely declaring something a nation does as illegal is rather trite. By who’s law is it illegal? The U.N.’s? Israel’s? Sharia?
The U.S. is at best inconsistent on the Middle East, and we should remember that our country is not intentionally acting for God’s best interests, but rather what it thinks is America’s best interests.
Debbie,
I did not brooch the Scriptural implications of Strider’s post – just the geo-political ones.
People can have opposite and opposing views of Scripture. I reject in total the NCT view of the world and of eschatology. I believe that Scripture is fairly firm that God is not limited to one covenant at a time – He will keep His Covenant with the ethnic descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David and Jesus. The covenant to the Jewish descendants of these worthies were eternal, and not dependent on their faithfulness. In His good time He will once again deal with their unbelief, and they will cry upon the one of whom they have pierced. All of the world needs to cling to the covenant of blood – the salvation of the world for eternal glory through the one and only Savior Jesus Christ. He is the only way to heaven – it is through our acceptance of the Way, the Truth, and the Life that we have joy in this life and the glory of the next – and that is the case for Jews, Muslims, Hindis, Buddhists, and all the people of the world (just in case there are those who think I am exposing Dual Covenant Theology). The covenant of Abraham dealt with LAND – something that the more dense of us do not quite get yet. But they will.
I thank God that He is doing a great work in Muslim lands, and that I can count on seeing a multitude of believers who once were in darkness and now are in light. But that does not mitigate the fact that the covenant of land was between God and Isaac, and not God and Ishmael. It is on the Land that many of the worlds future climatic events will take place. Tell me: why is it that the world’s attention continues to be placed upon a spot that in one place is only seven miles across? Or why the U.N. has more resolutions against Israel than on any one country on earth? Are they that more barbaric than some of the more cruel despots in the world? It seems that “the Prince of the Power of the Air” did not get the memo that the Jews in Israel were no longer necessary and were beyond notice.
Rob
They also have done their share of wrongs in this long war.
Really? Name one. Further, anything they did was a result of having been harmed and provoked by their evil, blackhearted, barely human enemy. They have the right to protect themselves. Deal with it.
Yet many Christians seem to overlook this because they are Israel.
No. Many people overlook this because, unlike you and other Baptist moderates, they don’t want America’s enemies succeed and defeat us or our allies. We are the good guys. Israel is the good guys. No one with two brain cells to rub together questions that.
If you’re so pro-muslim as you obviously are, why don’t you go drive a truck armed with explosives our into the middle of the desert and light the fuse. What? That wouldn’t take out anybody else? Really? I guess I didn’t think that through.
Rob,
Wow. I’m pretty shocked. Let me say first that I commented to encourage Strider, not to pick you apart personally. I did not call you uniformed, and I certainly didn’t call you dense. I said your comment – not you personally. I realize this is a discussion forum, but I would think a personal encouragement is appropriate every now and then. In order to address your comment appropriately, it would have taken time that I honestly did not have today – and I felt that Strider was more equipped if he had the time.
Given your personal sarcasm, tone and demeanor toward me, I don’t think further interaction on this would be helpful. I intended no personal challenge to your education or thoughtfulness. Using the word dense was a mistake, and I intended no double meaning. Seriously, there was nothing there.
Strider, again, thank you.
Thanks Patrick, don’t take it too hard, people have very strong feelings concerning this topic and civility goes out the window in a hurry when discussing it.
Joe, you could be a professional reporter the way you took my sentence out of context. I did not say we should not support Israel. I said we should not support Israel to build settlements. But maybe there is no difference in your mind.
My only comment to you is from the great ant-Israel, anti-semite Jeremiah who said in chapter 22 of his blistering criticism of the Jews
“And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien.”
Rob, honestly it is tough to converse with you. I will give it a shot anyway.
If you want to view the situation in Palestine as simplistic then here it is: The Government of Israel governs the West Bank and the so-called occupied territories. This government is ignoring its own rules on property rights and turning families out of their homes because they are of Arab decent and bulldozing their houses so that Jewish people can move in and take over. There is a verse in the Bible somewhere that says ‘Do not steal.’ Stealing is wrong even IF the nation state of Israel is God’s chosen people, even IF God wants them to have the land from the Euphrates to the border with Egypt. Even if you hold to these eschatalogical views still Israel should do what is right and Christians should stand for the oppressed no matter who is doing the oppressing.
That is as simplistic as I can make my case.
First off, I must plead my ignorance on a lot of the political and military issues involved in the current discussion. This is due to two things: 1) I don’t follow secular news all that closely. This is not something I necessarily believe to be a good thing. It’s just I have chosen to dedicate the bulk of my time and studies to other areas of interest; 2) I am a bit cynical with respect to the possibility of an “outsider” like me, even if I did spend a whole lot more time following secular news, coming to an objective opinion on all this. I tend to reject simplistic explanations of world events, and black hat/white hat scenarios in general.
I do believe, however, in the depravity of human nature, and, as a result, tend to favor a good system of checks and balances as the best means of holding back evil in the world in the time until our Lord returns and personally sets things straight.
Theologically, my understanding of Scripture leads me to the position that, as a Christian, as a general rule, I should be in favor of justice in secular government as opposed to injustice. I am generally pre-millennial in my eschatology (though not hard-line dispensationalist). However, I think any future God has planned for ethnic Israel and the land of Palestine (and possibly surrounding territory) is in His hands, and it is not our place as Christians to seek to move this along through our own initiative. God is perfectly capable of maneuvering the pieces of the metaphorical chessboard of world history in His way and in His time.
In the meantime, we should support justice, and not take a position of “my country, right or wrong,” or even “God’s people (i.e. Israel), right or wrong.” As I understand it, God is on the side of justice. And, if I am on God’s side, I will be on the side of justice as well.
That doesn’t mean I claim to know who is on the side of right and who is on the side of wrong in the issues discussed here in this post. I do realize I should probably do a better job of staying informed on the issues, though. And, as such, I am very open to hearing any evidence those on either side of the question may be able to present to convince me of their view. I would especially be open to links to well-presented articles that sum up the issues involved, that don’t require a correspondingly steep learning curve in order to bring myself up to speed. That may well be asking too much, though.
There are two subject lines being discussed here. Let us divide them so that they can be identifiable.
A) Justice, i.e. “Social Justice” vis a vis human government and this question, “Are there any human governments that are perfect, that uphold perfectly God’s law as to justice and human rights and dignity, specifically to minorities?” The answer: no. While certain governments do a better job in attempting to understand minorities and extend justice to them, invariably there are multiple set of failures. One can only look at our own country of the United States and realize that our history toward African-Americans is very sketchy, and our handling of Japanese-Americans during World War II was abysmal. While people of good will have attempted through time to right these wrongs through apologies, reparations and laws, the issues often times still persist, for “we are a sinful people”. Even Biblical Israel with inarguably God’s favor and blessing upon them persisted in sin and rebellion, and often got it “wrong.” All that we are left then are degrees, not comparing governments to perfection, but comparing them with one another. Non-Jewish citizens and residents in Israel have access to the courts to seek redress if something goes wrong – as in the U.S. They do not live in a totalitarian state, but a representative republic – with many minority (non-Jewish) members having representation in the Kinnesset. In others words, does everything the Israeli government do “right?” or “perfect” in the eyes of God? No – but in comparison to the states around them and other governments around the world the Israeli government are out and out saints. Do Muslim governments investigate themselves if they tear up a Synagogue and kill a few Jews? The Israeli government does when a Mosque is violated. Does a Muslim government suffer internal recriminations when they kick a few Jews to the curb out of their homes, or out of the country? Where is the condemnation to those injustices – on this blog or anywhere else? Well, the crickets are chirping I suspect. I am not saying with God it is a zero sum game. God will see and deal with all injustice, much better than we will. All I hope is that all injustice will be commented upon in the Middle East besides that committed by the Israeli government. Oh, and while technically Israel does govern the West Bank, it has been self-governed independently by the Palestinian Authority in anticipation of an accord to set up an independent Palestinian state. Gaza is controlled by Hamas – and while Israel sustains both through cash payments and supplies (food and medicine), each of these areas are fairly much devoid of Israeli control – often times at a cost to Israel proper with the firing of rockets that Hamas smuggles across the Egyptian border. In fact the only area which Israel has not superseded back to Palestinian control (pre-1967) is Jerusalem – the spoils of war and all.
B) God’s mark, God’s blessing, God’s “Chosen.” Is it required that those who have such a blessing know of it, or are currently “right” with all that God has revealed of Himself? Are all who will be saved currently on God’s list of the redeemed? Can God favor whom He wills, and disfavor who He will not? Can God favor nation/states, no matter how perfect or imperfect with His blessing? Explain the existence of modern Israel in light of these questions. The combined armies of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and others tried to snuff out the Jewish State in its infancy and failed in 1948. They tried in 1956 – 1967 – 1974 – and have played patsy war since. How has that Jewish state survived all this time with all of these obstacles? Explain that if you will.
These are the two themes in existence here. In the passion of rhetoric they often overlap. Nations and peoples can have God’s favor yet will remain sinners. Such is my conclusion of the current state of Israel – a people with a history who God chose to introduce the world to His goodness and grace through His Son Jesus, from the lineage of David and the Tribe of Judah. A people with whom God is not finished yet – and in my biblical understanding will go through another trial that will bring them as a people to their senses as to whom the true Messiah is. Why are we told to pray for the “Peace of Jerusalem?” So that He will bring Shalom, Gods peace, to the whole world and the people of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Rob
I am sorry Strider if you think it is tough to talk with me. I frankly do not believe I am that intimidating. I am just a strong believer of critical thinking/analysis. You have nothing to fear from me, even though I think you are wrong
Rob
I have removed a sentence from #1. On further reflection, I believe I was being a bit obtuse. I have always believed that Strider is a strong member of our team here on IMPACT and it has been a pleasure to have him with us. While I agree with his points about the need for justice, I think he is misguided in terms of his personal theology – as I am willing to be.
Rob
Rob, I appreciate your thoughtful comments here. Let me say that I agree with much of what you say. I understand that President Obama did all he could to convince the Palistinians not forward the motion to the security council. He did not believe that such a resolution was productive for several of the reasons you mentioned. The Govt of Israel is not perfect and it can be argued that the peoples that surround them are even less perfect- no argument from me! I do not expect righteous acts from unrighteous people. Muslim governments have done as bad and worse than the Israelis are now inflicting on the Palestinians- I would even argue that they are the major oppressors of the Palestinians.
My problem is here: Christians in the West not only don’t condemn settlement activity which unjustly evicts families from their homes they actively promote it. With the US Govt vetoing this resolution the statement has been made to the world that Christians do not believe that Palestinians have the right to live. How can we then say to them turn to Jesus? This is different than many other foreign policy issues. I was against the Iraq war but as an American I live with the fact that while that war was not my own personal decision, nor a religious decision, my Country yet made it. This issue is different because we are saying that our theology- what we believe is true- is that Palestinians should not exist. How can I now proclaim the Gospel to them? What would you say to a Palestinian today about the Gospel?
This is a good, sensible article. We should not expect the government’s foreign policy to be based on one interpretation of the Bible or any other book. This is another reason I would be wary of some evangelicals in positions where they weild the power of the state.
Ah, the beauty of simplicity – A or B. Sorry, to begin with “The Middle East and its problems are not complex,” is to forfeit the argument.
Strider,
Israel claims that the current settlements are merely extensions of established neighborhoods. I don’t know if this dubious or not – I don’t live there. I know that Israel has a problem with housing and that the problem is acute. With the history of Israel and the outright hatred and bitterness of the Palestinians, it is not hard to see how public opinion could be a “see-no-evil” toward kicking them to the curb. Israel also has the right of eminent domain with all those repercussions connected to it. As a question – if roles were reversed there, what would be the result? Would the Jewish families even be left alive? I would tell the Palestinians that there are many injustices in the world – and the only way to escape true justice from sin is to accept Jesus as Savior.
William -
Another master philosopher. Many people wish to make issues complex so that they can remain unsolved. My training is in counseling, and I have also dealt a little in third party mediation. The first step is to make supposed complex questions simple as possible so that they can be solved. For example, the Christian life can be reduced to two short statements: “Love God” and “Hate Sin.”
You forfeited your own argument my not joining in the first. How is my reduction a forfeit? How has my analysis come up short? How am I wrong? How is it any more complex than that? The shoe now is on your foot. I truly desire conversation and not a drive by.
Rob
The Arabs had the land for the last nearly 1900 years. The West decided that this was wrong- they wanted to protect, read exploit, the Holy places and they did not want Muslims in control of them. This led to the Crusades which basically resulted in around 300 years of bloody conflict in which thousands died. The Muslims have never forgiven Christians for this attack. It is true that Europe was attacked by Muslims but Muslims don’t like too many pesky facts any more than we do.
When the Western powers set up Israel after WW2 the Arabs saw another crusade coming and did all they could to repulse it. They have so far failed- and for the record I am not sorry. Now, many people have been brutally slaughtered on both sides. There is not a Jew or Arab anywhere in Palestine who has not lost a friend or loved one to senseless violence. Neither side can forgive and this is very important. Who is the only group of people on the planet who offers forgiveness? It is the followers of the only one who taught us to forgive. Only in Christ can the sides find real forgiveness and therefore freedom from conflict. But if the Christians are taking sides and promoting violence who will promote peace?
How is this for not simplistic. I don’t believe in the two state solution. I believe- as an American no less- that a representative Government is the only way to protect all people under a rule of law. You are right about the land- it is limited and there is no way to draw a border around a Palestinian state. Even if you could what we are declaring is that Arabs and Jews can not live together or get along and all we are doing in drawing borders is drawing new battle lines between enemies. Right now Israel has control and I believe that it is in their best interest and the moral thing to do to fight for Arab rights within the borders that they control. No, the Arabs wont thank them for that but we do not do what is right because others pay us to, we do it because we serve a God who expects us to do right.
Right now today Arabs are being evicted from homes that their families have owned for generations. That is wrong. If the Jews want peace they will have to do what is right and then God may or may not bless them with peace. In the meantime, the message of the Church should always remain that God loves us so much that he sent his Son to die for us- Jews, Americans, and even Palestinians.
Rob, Strider gave a glimpse of the long history. In counseling I suspect you don’t accept the simplistic first offerings of your clients.
No William – I get a history and then reduce – as I have done here. So…how is my reduction false or too simplistic?
The Jewish history in that land is also long – otherwise the Bible would be false
There has been a constant and continuous presence of Jews in the land for over 4000 years – even in the Diaspora there were Jews who lived in Jerusalem and in the land, often abused by their Muslim masters.
Who among the leadership among the enemies of Israel concede that the Jewish state has a right to exist? The Palestinian Authority? Last I looked they still advocate the destruction of Israel in thier charter. Hamas? Hezbollah? Iran? The enemies of the Jewish state are legion, and its friends can be counted on in one hand. Coincidence?
You are forgetting my first post. Israel has given concessions and land for peace. They returned the Sinai to Egypt and have a Peace Treaty – they returned to Jordan parts captured after 1967 and have a Peace Treaty. They proposed at Camp David 98% of everything the Authority wanted to make peace with them – and Arafat the murderer of children and Olympic stars merely started an intifada in exchange.
Where is the repudiation of war on the Muslim side? Where is the acceptance of peace on their account? I am of the opinion that there needs to be further brokenness – and God will break both the Jew and the Muslim to His will to broker peace.
Rob
Rob, you seem to be unaware of the last 1500 years of history of the ME, or, perhaps you are aware but think such is irrelevant.
Oh, you have an urgent message to call Hilary Clinton.
She thinks the issue is complex and will be delighted to let you fix it with a sentence or two.
I wish you well. You can have the last word.
William, if we can’t speak to each other with love and respect what do we have to offer a lost world?
Rob, I agree that unfortunately much more brokenness will be needed in the Middle East before there is peace. You know Anwar Sadat was bent on destroying Israel and it was the death of his brother that brought him to the peace table. It is possible. As for your reduction of history there remains one thing outstanding and that is that many Arabs and Jews would like very much to live in peace. There are forces who want everyone to think all Arabs would like to kill all Christians and Jews. This is not true. Also, the small but growing Arab Christian community is still suffering at the hands of the Jews. Again, no government is perfect and I can promise you that I know better than most the numbers of Christians persecuted and killed in Muslim nations but the point is the Christian response. Up until now I am afraid that as we have continued to write Israel a blank check we have dishonored our Christian brothers by not supporting their protection.
William – I did not call peace “easy” – just the problem “simple to understand.” In respect I am not angry with you, just looking for conversation – why are you going off in a huff? If your argument has legitimacy, speak to it! If not, have the humility of someone who desires to learn – I am always learning for I “know nothing.”
Strider – I would pray that many Arabs and Muslims desire peace – but to the radicals that would be heresy – and you know that. The memory of an-Naksah trembles in the mind of millions as to make that saying a common one. The answer is to become more pure. Since Allah weighs everything in the scales, certainly the enemies of Islam can be defeated if the faithful can be more subservient. It is hard for the common man to desire peace when every message he hears from the Mosque says “death to Israel.” And while it is good that many do desire peace, you and I both know that they are in a significant minority – every public opinion poll conducted in the Middle East among even the more “moderate” Arab states cements this point. When Gaza had the ability to vote in leaders, they chose Hamas. Enough said.
I desire to support my Christian brothers and sisters who are in distress. I am not afraid to call a spade a spade if something is wrong. I am calling on all countries of the Middle East, including Israel, to no longer harm Christians, and allow them the freedom to worship and share as they please. Could you not use a little more freedom in your work in Mordor?
Rob
Guys, relax. I’m a happy man. The fish are biting, sun is shining, and birds are singing, no one threw a hymnal at me Sunday. I do admit to mild sarcasm from time to time but am in no huff.
God bless you all.
William,
Not angry, but just unwilling or unable to say how my reduction is suspect. Oh well – I am glad nobody threw a hymnbook at you last Sunday – or if they did you had your back turned!
Rob
The fact is that the Israel of the Old Testament is not Israel today. God can and does have a different Covenant today than that of the Old Testament. The Church(which is Jew and Gentile) is now “Israel”. Hebrews 7-8. All of God’s children, those who have Christ as their Lord and Savior aka the Church is now heir to God’s promises(Gal. 3:28-29)I do believe there have been times that Israel has politically used Christians even though the nation themselves are not Christian.
The Covenant God had with Israel was conditional to them walking in the Law. They have not done this for centuries. They are not automatically entitled to the land they are wanting to possess. The fact that they are displacing a people who have been there for a long time, taking their homesteads is wrong. I agree with Strider who said it is stealing.
It has been asked what wrongs Israel has done. They have committed mass murder even of innocents, they have created millions of refugees, have committed unjust water supply use, and abusive treatment of aliens, even foreigners. And I could go on. This would clearly go against the Old Covenant God made with Israel in the OT.
Look again Debbie. The covenant told to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was both an unconditional covenant (not based upon their faithfulness), as well as an “eternal” covenant. “Mass Murder?” Thats blood libel of those who survived the “Final Solution.” I would stop reading anti-semetic rhetoric if I where you.
Rob
Rob, do you believe that the foreign policy of the United States with respect to Israel and her neighbors should be based on one interpretation of the Bible?
To know and disagree with Israel’s wrongs in this as well as the Arab’s wrongs is not anti-Semitic Rob. It’s no more wrong than if you sinned I did not overlook that or if I sinned someone not overlooking it.
William -
No – American foreign policy should be based upon American interests. And in that respect we have it right (or have had it right untill President Obama). Yet again do you think the German people could have saved themselves a little misery and bloodshed by paying attention to that which is in God’s eye?
Debbie – funny, you said nothing of the other nations wrongs in your diatribe – just that the Jewish state was a “mass murderer” – I live in Missouri where we are the “Show-Me” state, so you are going to have to prove that slur. The next thing you know you will be quoting the “The Protocols of Zion.”
Shalom,
Rob
I recommend that everyone, everywhere, always obey God, even in Germany. The devil is in the details.
A good bit of your stuff here goes back to your interpretation of Scripture and from that to your view of human events in that light.
If that is simplistic, then you of all people can understand that.
I would believe that good Christians everywhere would have a Biblical worldview and then live it – even under-shepherds from Georgia and Missouri! So whats your point?
Rob
Never mind. It was too complex.
William,
Condescension is unacceptable. I have been more than congenial with you, and all you give me is sarcasm. You can be a troll, or you can engage in discussion. I would prefer the later than the former. All that I am left with is that you really do not have an argument, and when approached with someone who does, all you can dish out is ad hominem- and that is unbecoming of a believer and a shepherd. Are you like this with your folks?
Grace,
Rob
Interesting article Strider!
The position of a Christ following Jewish citizen should be that of a Christ following American citizen or a Christ follower from any other government. The Apostle Paul speaks of this clearly in his letter to the Roman Christians….who would have great understanding of both sides of the argument being bantered about in this blog…..
Romans 3:19-31 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; (20) because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. (21) But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, (22) even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (25) whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; (26) for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (27) Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. (28) For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. (29) Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, (30) since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. (31) Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
The Law of God and the governments that negotiate laws are of two different characters and will meet with two different outcomes. There is no law of man that can withstand the Law of God.
Galatians 5:14-26 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” (15) But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. (16) But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. (17) For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. (18) But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. (19) Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, (20) idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, (21) envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (24) Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (25) If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. (26) Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
Blessings,
Chris
Strider,…. to add to my agreement with your post,
The government of the United States is not at all like the government of Israel. Although there is similar democratic language used and similar structures and groups, the tenet of the government of the United States and that of Israel lead to different and exclusive conclusions. The nation of Israel is a religious political and economic state, ….it is not a state that defines freedom in the same manner as the United States. Ultimately the law of nation of Israel is interpretation and adjudicated as religious Israel,…which is why Palestinian, Iranian, or any other religious based political system is diametrically opposed to the goals of Israel; more specifically born of different and opposing blood lines.
The United States government is not blood based,….it is capital based (individual land ownership), or property. This is the goal of the American government with Israel. The representatives of the United States government are interested in the geo-economic political gains from any countries on the Middle East….not their religious affiliations. What is lacking in the United States government currently though is the ability to understand the impact of the religious systems on the political economic systems; most of the administration is naïve to this at best.
We need more God fearing men in the Congress of the United States in order to bring wisdom in our dealings with the Middle Eastern religious governments.
Blessings.
Chris
Rob, you have been offered several substantive rejoinders but you dismiss them. What is the point of pointing to any of the centuries long history of the area, the eventful 20th century history or even the recent history in our lifetimes as making what you call “not complex”? You declare the matter not complex, all other views are dismissed.
You’re the guy who trotted out his counseling credentials as providing the ability to make complex problems simple, and then offering a simple ME solution. You’re the guy who touted his interest in critical thinking/analysis, as if the rest of the folks here eschew that. Please.
Get off your high horse, my friend. My initial comment, mild sarcasm fully warranted by your initial comment, was simple and straightforward. Your initial comment to me was mild sarcasm as well. Not a problem for me. One might direct critical thinking/analysis to the concept of “me but not thee”.
Sometimes exchanges in this medium leave out what is really necessary to convey attitude. I have no reason not to presume that you are a wonderful minister, an affable guy, and a thoughtful Christian.
With that, I bow out of this semi-discussion, but I wish you well.
If the people (including some Christians) being forced from their homes lived within the confines of any other geo-political nation-state, nobody would be lining up to defend the government of the particular geo-political nation state.
From a U.S. foreign policy standpoint, it’s complicated–not by theology–but by the fact that we’ve basically propped up the government and built their military.
Stuart -
Nobody, including me, is defending sin, albiet individual or state. My contention was with the worthy who knows all about Christian prosecution in the area of the Middle East where it is not just people getting kicked out of their homes which occurs – and basically though agreeing that incidents in Mordor (with the tacit approval of government) are deplorable, he still casts aspersions upon “their” enemy. Now I don’t know what that is all about. I will take his word that he is concerned with believers no matter where they live and does not want Israel to get a free pass. And while I can ask “where was he” when Christians where being killed and enslaved in the Sudan, cast in prison in Saudi Arabia, harrased in Egypt, stoned in Iran, beaten in the streets in Afghanistan, burned alive in homes and in their churches, tortured and beheaded in Indonesia, I get why he wrote here on this topic.
Simply put – the American government supports democratic republics as allies where possible. The American government also needs friends who will help root out the greatest existential threat to our existence since the Cold War. Most of the terroism and evil now in the world directed at the U.S. does not immanate from Israel. Get it? From where does it come from my friend? Hmmm.
Rob
Chris,
My brother, you have to be joking, right? The government of Israel is not some quasi-religious entity. It is a secular state. 85% to 90% of all Jews living in Israel today are agnostic – and is reflected in their governmental structures. Now because the government is Parliamentarian, various deals must be made with smaller parties to form a controlling, working government. Less than 10% of the Kinneset are religious oriented parties – but the major political parties often need their help in forming a government, and have to give consessions to them.
Rob
William,
The “substantive” rejoinders as you call them did nothing to dissemble the reduction: One side desires peace – the other side just wants to kill the other. I thought that I was fairly clear on that. How they got there is another question – and in my opinion is not merely a repulsion of the Western powers and disdain from the memory of Crusades (which is just an excuse really) – Mohammed wrote about the Jews in the Q’ran in the 7th century – and there has been a blood feud since Isaac and Ishmael – so please spare me from being the boob you think I am. Thank you very much for your concern – and I also think that you are probably a good kind hearted Christian brother through it all. Just painfully, obviously wrong.
Rob
Rob,
While attempting to simplify the situation can be helpful, I doubt that saying one side is right and the other is wrong is the best way to start looking for some kind of resolution.
“One side desires peace, the other side wants to kill the other.”
I’m sure that if a marriage counselor said, “She just wants to love you, and you want to be a jerk,” that would be the last session the couple would go to together.
Andrew – would it be true?
I am sorry – I find truthful sessions with members and those who seek help all the more satisfying since they are seeking truthful answers. So – is my reduction truthful or not? If it is, then no matter what I say will resolve the matter. That is why peace in the ME is right now fleeting. No amount of talk will get beyound that barrier – the one side wants the other dead.
Rob