Is Yoga Demonic?
Posted by Rastis in News & Culture
There is much buzz lately over the question over Yoga’s alleged demonic roots and the legitimacy or illegitimacy for Christian practice. Both Mark Driscoll and Al Mohler have made stands against Christians practicing Yoga. It is not just evangelical voices making these claims. Although he would probably disagree with the calling Yoga demonic, Rajiv Malhotra argues that Yoga is not congruent with Christian faith and practice. Others enter the conversation through satire.
What these men (not to mention the many others who address the same thing) address is not a new idea at all. The purpose of this post is not to address the issue of Yoga itself, rather to address the addressing of Yoga. There are three pitfalls those who critique Yoga, or any other religion or religious practice, need to be wary of*:
Pitfall 1: Inconsistency/Incompleteness.
What ever stand we make on a religious practice we should be willing to logically, systematically, and consistently apply it to like beliefs and practices. Why go after Yoga? Why not go after scented candles and ladies shampoos? By contrast, there are far more people using such products than can get into the firefly pose (Or perhaps it is like flying vs. landing and getting out of the pose is the real trick…). There is nothing wrong with scented candles and shampoos, but, like Yoga, aromatherapy is equally rooted in the eastern monistic worldview (EMW). Most people do not realize that Yoga is only one practice in a family of practices related to the EMW. A short list of these practices would include homeopathic medicines acupuncture, meditation, aroma therapy, color therapy, chiropractic medicine, martial arts, and feng shui.
The foundational principal of the EMW is that all that exists is ontologically one. If they are to choose between mind and matter, they would choose mind. All that exists in this world is the projection of people’s minds. Statements about the “spark of the divine” within are a result of this monistic construct. If there is only one thing in the world and we are all part of it, and this thing is divine (not in the personal transcendent sense), then the divine is within us.
The problems of the world, be they war, disease, or simply stress, are caused by the individual pieces of the “divine” (Hindus call this Atman) being separated from the whole of the divine (Hindus call this Brahman). Happiness and harmony, both in the here and now and eschatologically, is gained via uniting Atman and Brahman. The EMW can be seen in such movies as Star Wars, The Matrix, and Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. On the practical level, people experience problems when their lives are out of sync with the cosmic forces of the universe. To fix these problems, people participate in practices which restore their connection to the whole. Eastern medicine teaches that there is a life force flowing through everything. When these forces are obstructed or imbalanced they cause pain and sickness. Ancient chiropractors and acupuncturists help remove these blockages via their medicine. Conversely, one who is able to achieve a high level of unity with the whole become very powerful persons, one example of that would be martial arts. One who is a master of such, allegedly, is able to harness the power within him, which is also within his foe and the world around him and he is able to manipulate these for victory, much like a Jedi.
As all of the practices listed above are equally related and grounded in the EMW, there is a sense in which they should either all be rejected or accepted. Perhaps those who critique Yoga as being demonic are indeed willing to group all of those practices and condemn them as equally demonic. However, a willingness to be consistent is not enough, particularly if one is consistently wrong.
Pitfall 2: Preachy rhetoric.
Lets assume for a moment that Yoga is indeed demonic. Simply declaring that fact is not necessarily the best course of action. Southern Baptists have historically been rather forward in making remarks about other religions. The two that come to mind are “God does not hear the prayer of a Jew” and Jerry Vine’s comments about Muhammad. Again, assuming these statements are correct, this is not the way or place in which to expound these thoughts. Preaching to the choir for a hearty “amen” may be the kind of stunt which prohibits us from having a prophetic voice to the lost in the community. There is nothing wrong with fiery preaching, however, when very public individuals (with podcasting and youtube, that means just about all of us) make incisive statements, they should always first consider how this will effect people’s receptivity on the front lines. We shouldn’t go on TV, youtube, or the blogosphere and declare that Roman Catholics are idolaters. There are more productive venues and methods without the high-strung rhetoric to address the theological beliefs of Roman Catholics There is a difference between being through provoking and just being provoking. But what if the connection between the demonic and Yoga is tenuous?
Pitfall 3: Post hoc ergo propter hoc (drawing a false connecting between cause and effect).
There is a propensity among preachers to, no pun intended, demonize that with which we disagree. In the Independent Baptist church I attended in my youth, the preachers would often lambaste those who read, used, and translated the NIV. Rather than just explaining it as an academic difference in translation methodology, they would theologize the NIV position as absolute sin. They couldn’t just say that the other guys were wrong or that there was a legitimate difference of opinion. They were in sin, and a few of them are alleged homosexuals (I have actually heard that last part). This kind of rhetoric, sadly, typifies many Christian disputes. When the dispute moves outside of the Christian tent, however, the temptation shifts from calling it sin to calling it demonic. There are perhaps times when this is hyperbole. However, when one speaks literally they are overstating their claim unless there is some kind of actual evidence of demonic involvement. Is everyone who espouses a false belief possessed by a demon? That is a little too simplistic an answer. When I read Plato I recognize an occasional element of truth mixed in with his common errors. Was he possessed by a demon? Is platonic philosophy demonic? I don’t think so on either account. That doesn’t mean that we can’t say that he is wrong. It just means that when someone is wrong, we don’t need to go the extra mile in calling it demonic. His beliefs do not accurately depict the world; they are false. This should be enough. When we overuse and abuse “demon” and “demonic” we can inadvertently affirm the reality of that which we oppose.
Pitfall 4: Affirming the ontological reality of false beliefs.
There are many arguments concerning religious practices and beliefs in other religions wherein the one arguing against something does so in such a way that he nearly affirms the reality of that against which he argues. Many who argue too strongly concerning the distinctions between the “God of the Quran” and the “God of the Bible” or against the “Jewish God” inadvertently affirm henotheism–the belief that there are many gods, but ours is for us, and is probably bigger and stronger than theirs. Paul Hiebert, the missionary anthropologist, says:
While seeking to understand the explanation systems of other cultures, missionaries must not equate these beliefs with ontological truth. Not every spirit named in another culture is, in fact, a real spirit. Some are guises of Satan and his hosts; others, such as the Spirit of Small Pox and the Spirit of Lightning, are better explained in scientific terms; and still others are cultural phantasies. (Hiebert, Folk Religions, 169).
Yoga makes you limber and sweaty. Yoga is rooted in a worldview that does not correspond to the world as it is. The power of that worldview influences the practitioner of Yoga effectively and negatively only in so far as the practitioner believes its claims and orders its life around the worldview. Though orthodox practitioners might dispute the fact, one can practice a religious practice without believing (and as Mohler points out, even being aware of or understanding) the associated beliefs. If you use shampoo designed for aroma therapy (chances are you do), you are not in danger of inviting demonic activity into your life for no other reason than aroma therapy is simply false. Changing the smell in your house does not bring you closer to unity with the one, Brahman, the force or George Lucas. This is true because monism isn’t real. In the same way, Yoga does not produce on its own claims because the world is not actually structured for it to work.
In the coming years churches and individuals in the west will be faced with the issue of pluralism. Globalization is forcing these decisions and discussions on people. One hundred years ago, the people in these same places might have never even heard of some of the beliefs and practices that are now held by their neighbors. We can neither accept nor reject everything; both of these conclusions are premature.
*I am not accusing any person quoted here of having fallen into the pits I describe. These pits are just common mistakes for those who enter the discussion. No theologians were harmed in the making of this post.



Frankly, I am neither into yoga nor have I really studied its background, beyond what is “common knowledge.” But to those who demonize it, I would ask how you aspply Matthew 12:33, which reads, “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad.” Does this not at least suggest–and straight from the mouth of Jesus–that the evil or demonic is in how a thing is used or applied rather than what its origin might be? My perception is that a lot of my conservative brethren (especially those more conservative than me) take great delight in condemning things which of themselves are sinful, but is that a strictly Biblical attitude? If so, why, and why does Matthew 2:33 not apply to them?
John Fariss
I am not quiet getting the ontological transcendence of this post. Perhaps the writer can enlighten me a bit more in my dull ignorance – such as this bit of doublespeak: “Affirming the ontological reality of false beliefs” = if you mean that people believe what is false to be true = shucks I think we all know that. What is the point? All I got was “we need to be smart about how we go about sharing the truth.” Okay = as long as we get to what is true in the next decade or so and that not all is “Maya”.
I do believe you are missing a small point – smelly candles and fragrant shampoos merely take the stink out without any cosmic effect – hopefully they do their job well. Yoga is a little more intense than mere candles or soaps, don’t you think (depending on the type of course)?
Rob
Let me take another stab at it. Consider meat offered to idols in the early church. In correcting and addressing the views concerning this meat as a legitimate option for Christians, one had to be careful not to affirm that they were ontologically true it making a case for or against its use. The reality is that the idol is a mere stone and not another actual existing deity. One can make the case too strongly however, against the use such meat in such a way that affirms a henotheistic world view. As believers we need to make sure that our arguments affirm one and only one God.
I am not particularly a driscol fan, but if you listen to his series on the doctrine of the trinity he makes a similar mistake. He basically affirms that any false deity that people worship is, in fact, an actual demon. I affirm that it is possible for this to be true. However, it is equally true that these deities could be completely fictional. To argue so strongly against them and affirm some kind of real presence behind them gives their creators too much credit. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster]
Other religions either worship the true God falsely (and nonsalvificly) as some such as Winfried Corduan suggest [He suggests, contra the evolutionary model of religions, that all religions began with what he calls original monotheism. Generations passed and the beliefs were perverted so that now they are polytheists, pantheists, etc and have no saving or true knowledge of the true God], or they are completely fictional and made up. If we just loosely throw around the term demonic, then the term looses its teeth for when we are actually affirming a demonic presence and foundation (as in wicca and other neopagan practices where there is actual demonic activity at work). This is not to say that false beliefs are not the guise and means of satan, we simply have to contradict other systems without affirming, or nearly affirming, other false systems.
Regarding aroma therapy: Yoga is a little more intense in the action it requires, but both are rooted in the same worldview. This worldview is magical in the sense that it affirms that some action, thought, word, etc when done properly will somehow manipulate the world around us. It should be an interesting experiment to go to the store and go to the store to see how many “smelly” products are labeled for aromatherapy.
I don’t personally think there is anything wrong with using these products as there is a difference between the form and meaning between those who affirm the monistic worldview and myself. The form (the candle or shampoo, or whatever) remains the same, but for them the meaning is different.
I can only make the case that Paul made himself about what this was all about. I find that a lot of people who quote 1 Corinthians 8 fail to quote 1 Corinthians 10:
“Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?” – 1 Corinthians 10: 18-22
Paul implies then that there is a connection between other “gods” and demons, and then warns believers not to participate with “demons.” One can argue that there is not a demon under every rock – Satan and his henchmen are not omniscient, nor omnipotent, nor all powerfull. But when we get to this land of “false images” we need to tread carefully. While we acknowledge that many are merely ignorant of who God is and worship that which they do not understand (see Paul’s speach to the philosophers in Athens) Paul also states in Romans 1 that this ignorance is willful – people outside of Christ prefer understanding the world in ways which will lead to their destruction. And while the practice of Hatha Yoga (the most common western form) seems only in practice an intense excercise regimen it can become a gateway to greater “yoking” – the intiate practicing Dharma to ahieve a higher state of consciouness in a system replete with characters like Shiva, Krishna, and other worthies desiring to assist one to a greater understanding of Brahman. I have meet many people who started in Hatha who now practice Raja which is truly a gateway into the world of the denomic. Is this something that Christians should be concerned about?
Rob
Not knowing that much about yoga, I am hesitant to jump into this conversation, lest my ignorance cause me to stick my foot in my mouth.
In any case, here are a few thoughts that come to mind…
At some time or another, for a significant amount of people, as far as I can tell, there is (or has been) a connotation in their mind between the following practices and belief systems:
praying with beads (rosary or otherwise): Hinduism, Buddhism, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Islam, Sikhism
praying prostrate with a prayer mat, facing Mecca: Islam
males wearing earrings (either on the left side, right side, both sides, etc.): homosexual lifestyle; counter-cultural lifestyle
tattoos: pagan religions of nations surrounding Old Testament Israel; motorcycle gangs; sailors; counter-cultural lifestyle
eating meat offered to idols: idol worship
It seems, as I think through these various practices, that none of them, in and of themselves, is evil. The following verse comes to mind:
“‘All things are lawful,’ but not all things are helpful. ‘All things are lawful,’ but not all things build up.” (1 Corinthians 10:23)
Now, whether Paul was saying, here, for the Christian, all things really are “lawful,” or just quoting a common saying known to the Corinthians believers, the point remains—for us, as Christians, not all things are helpful, and not all things build up.
Thus, regarding each of the above practices, as a Christian, I would ask myself (and encourage others to ask themselves), Is this really helpful for the ultimate goal I am pursuing? Does it really serve to build up the Body of Christ?
For me, one factor to be taken into consideration, when seeking the answer to these questions is the various connotations that these practices do (and/or have, at one time or another) carry along with them. Does our participating in them give tacit approval to the various religions/philosophies/lifestyles that have frequently been associated with them?
Using some more extreme examples, playing cards, dice, dancing, movies, rock music, long hair for men, etc., etc., have all been unrecommended (and, at times, condemned) for believers, using the same rationale.
However, times change, cultures change, and connotations change. Certain practices that were once clearly related, in the minds of many people, to certain religions/philosophies/lifestyles are no longer as clearly related to them, in the minds of many. In some cases, original connotations are almost completely forgotten.
I am tempted to place yoga in the same category as all the above. However, if the goal of yoga is to achieve a certain state of mind that may, perhaps, place our will in neutral, and open us up to spiritual influences of a demonic nature, the question may not be solely one of connotation, but of substance.
With my limited knowledge of yoga, my guess is there are certain types of yoga that are definitely in this latter category, and others where it may not be so black and white. But, for me, there are enough “yellow lights” to really think twice before saying, “No problem, all it is, is exercise in which you put your body into certain positions in order to relax better.”
As far as aroma therapy and color therapy are concerned, it seems to me that the issue is more an issue of connotation. TM, as I understand it, is more akin to yoga, though, inasmuch as an altered state of mind (placing the mind in neutral) is the stated goal (although there may certain types of meditation that don’t have this goal).
I don’t know enough about acupunture, chiropractic medicine, martial arts (though I do understand there is a good bit of variety regarding accompanying spiritual practices from one martial art to another), and feng shui, to have much of an opinion. I am aware of several Christian ministries that use martial arts as a platform for teaching discipline and proclaiming the gospel, though.
Sorry to join the party late!
The problem I have encountered in my limited ministry experience is when people begin to merge these Eastern practices with their religious life. It’s not fun to have to address people who suggest to others that they meditate to connect with God living inside of them while explaining how it can take hours to get to a thoughtless, untroubled state where you can really commune with God.
Stretching and exercise are fine, but let’s not take Eastern mystical practices and call them spiritual disciplines.
Perhaps a discussion on form and meaning will be helpful. The form is the act under consideration and the meaning is the “theology” or worldview held by the practitioner. While most forms remain the same, or nearly the same, meaning often changes (or at least can be changed). Here are two examples.
Think about a man who is lost and spends his entire life revolving around baseball. Any, and all, extra time and money go spent on this “idolatry.” Later in life, he becomes a believer and realizes that he should re-prioritize his life around God instead of his own desires–innocuous as they may appear. Is baseball ontologically demonic? Baseball, used as an idol, is demonic in the sense that his affections were inward rather than God-ward. It is the meaning associated with his participation in baseball, not baseball itself that is errant. Could this man ever watch a game, and is it wrong for other believers to participate? We can answer the question in such a way that our answer would betray some kind of actual ontological affirmation of the inherent demonic nature of the sport. As we can all see, this would be absurd.
That example might be too easy as it is not dealing with something which is overtly religious. Thus, let us look at the same man who also was lost who attended church. From birth, this man attended church. Perhaps this was his way of assuaging his guilt for his other true love–baseball. He attends regularly as a cultural and familial obligation. Certainly this, and other occasional good deeds, is earning him favor with God so that one day God will be able to just kind of look the other way. Then one day the Holy Spirit opens his eyes as he sits under the preaching of the Gospel… Do we want him to abandon his former form of regular church attendance? Probably not. There is now, however, new meaning in this form. The form hasn’t changed, but the meaning of this form being a work to earn merit or favor certainly has. Thus, he should continue in the form, but he should certainly eschew the prior meaning he associated with it.
So what of Yoga? It is a form. There is nothing inherently demonic with the particular poses themselves. If there is anything demonic then it is with the faulty meaning associated with yoga. This does not mean, however, that one could use yoga, per se, as a form of worship (unless you are simply meaning in the way that everything we do is to bring glory to God and is thus some kind of worship). The world view of yoga and the meaning associated by those who are Hindu, Buddhist, New age, Neopagan, etc. is false. Thus, the content they chant and the meaning they associate with it is false. I think that is where I would personally draw the line in advising believers. The form, I believe, is innocuous by itself. One can do the form without buying into the meaning. In the same way, one can learn martial arts without the aspiration to become an ascended master. One can burn scented candles disassociated from its monistic meaning.
Let us disabuse ourselves of a faulty analogy. Alexander Cartwright (the person credited with providing modern baseball its rules) never envisioned that anyone would promote the game of baseball as a means to reach the divine in oneself and find transcendence (despite the movie “Field of Dreams”). If a person does so, they are going far beyond the intent of the folks who put it together.
On the other hand Yoga in all of its varied forms (Hatha, Raja, Jnana, Bhakti, Karma) was developed for one purpose over centuries: to find the divine within using various methods and techniques , often duplicitious and found in each type of yoga. The poses (asanas) in Hatha were developed to help purify the body (shatkarma), or in other words the purification of the physical body to lead to purification of the mind. Instead of the silent posture of the asana in Raja, there are multiple asanas in Hatha. Ultimately the practice of Yoga (determined by those who invented it) is to alleviate suffering “to yoke”, fixing the minds attention upon Brahman (or Nirvana, or transcendence, or “the Real” (just put your favorite Eastern philosophy in the blank)) to ultimate transcendence or re-emergence into the cycle of birth and death through samsara (reincarnation).
While you can argue all day that “personal intent determines use” I just don’t believe that will wash. Paul enjoins us that we are to flee “from all appearances of evil” – and certainly the poisoned source of and the development of Yoga and the asanas should lead one to pause, albeit “the doctrine of demons”. I guess one can pick up a Ouija board intending to merely have a little fun like one plays Monopoly – but I would not try it – too many people have been lead astray by its use. The same could be said of Yoga. Get a bike, or an exercise tape. Probably a more strenuous workout than having to worry about the metaphysical, ontological, and the epistemological (and scriptural) problems with maya.
Rob
Rob,
Factually, I agree with your middle paragraph. Nevertheless, one can hold those positions till the cows come home, and they will not actually unite them with Brahman. Hence the necessity to not affirm an ontological reality that is not in fact real. Thus, the positions themselves, in spite of their intention, invention, design, etc, have no actual power. If we avoid them for having inherent power, then our avoidance is affirming that in some way they actually “work.”
“While you can argue all day that “personal intent determines use” I just don’t believe that will wash. Paul enjoins us that we are to flee “from all appearances of evil” – and certainly the poisoned source of and the development of Yoga and the asanas should lead one to pause, albeit “the doctrine of demons””
But if we continue reading from 1 cor 10 Paul goes on to exhort his readers, if they have the faith, to go ahead and eat the meat so long as it is done with faith and plausible ignorance.
Also, the intent–and some would argue the reality–of the ouiji board is that they are trying to contact the dead which is clearly forbidden in scripture regardless of intent. Yoga is not named. If the actions themselves, divorced from the philosophy, prove to be inherently demonic then I agree that it is inappropriate for Christian use. I am just not convinced that the question regarding yoga is as certain (the worldview, yes).
Okay, this is where my ignorance regarding yoga comes into play. What is it about yoga that defines it as yoga? Is it merely the physical positions? Or, is it also the intention to induce a certain mental state?
Short answer is yes. It depends on who you ask. the Christians who participate in yoga affirm that there are “nonsectarian” versions. Someone from a strong Hindu tradition would probably disagree and say it isn’t really yoga. The stretching and poses can be done without the worldview. Whether the religious community would recognize that as pure or not, I don’t know. I have heard some of them say it is permissible, but who speaks authoritatively for any religion?
Your comment surprises me, David. I always took you for an expert in Yoga – flexible, nimble, cat-like reflexes!
That was in a former life. Karma has caught up with me in this one.
Yes Rastis – but we are enjoined not to dabble in idolatry. The asana (poses) are taken from the representations of the multiple Hindi gods and goddesses – each “pose” represents the totality of Brahman. In example, President Obama currently has his picture in an “asana” on the cover of Time magazine – photo shopped if you will in a “pose.” Unfortunately for him (or fortunate depending upon your political viewpoint) the asana that they have placed him in is for Shiva “the destroyer of the world.” In other words, every time you place your body in an asana, then you are “posing” in the image of an individual Hindi god or goddess.
“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” – Hosea 4:6a
Rob
Good grief.
Problem Christiane? By the way, can we lay the death of 40 million human beings on the altar of a certain political party (since you want to lay blame on certain politicians these days)?
Rob
Brother Rob,
I know next to nothing about far eastern religions. However, something you seem to be saying caught my eye in this discussion and I would like to make sure I am understanding your intent. It seems, to me, that you are saying there are certain body poses and stretches that are inherently evil. Is that your view?
Peace to you,
From the Middle East
Rob,
Again, we are not in disagreement as to how easterners define their worldview. My argument is one for distinction between forms and meanings unless the forms themselves cannot be separated from the meaning. Barring actual idol worship, direct, overt and intentional communication with occultic powers, and things referenced in scripture as overt and inherent immorality, I have trouble saying that a form is inherently evil or demonic.
This is kind of like the debate some of my old friends used to have about Christmas trees. We had several friends who did not use Christmas trees due to their ancient pagan roots. Paganism was one meaning associated with the form Christmas trees. Are all who have Christmas trees pagan idolaters opening themselves up to demonic forces? I tend to say no, as it is possible to have a tree, even a Christmas tree, and disassociate it from its pagan meanings.
With Christmas trees and Yoga, I think what is far more seductive in the way of vain philosophy is not their ancient pagan roots and meanings but their modern ones. In the west, personal image, materialism, and hero worship are the new idolatries.
Well said, Rastis. BTW: the same analogy can be extended to the days of the week and most months. “Sunday” is the day originally dedicated to the worship of the sun god; “Monday” is of the moon god, “Wednesday” is Wotan’s day, for those into ancient Germanic dieties, and “”Thursday” is Thor’s day. Most of our months have similar roots: “January” is dedicated to the two-faced Roman god Janius, “March” is dedicated to Mars, the god of war, “July” is to Julius Caesar and “August” to Augustus Caesar. If one is going to take the position that the original association determines present connection, then to be consistant, they must adopt the old Quaker practice of simply calling the days and months #1, #2, #3, etc.
John Fariss
No Middle. I am not saying that body poses are evil. What I am implying is that Yoga is one of the “main attractions” of Eastern Philosopy – developed over centuries for the intent and purpose of getting to transcendance – a “magical” moment if you will. What rastis and others are supposing is that the “acts” themselves are not evil themselves, and if people do not “believe” in the religious significance of the act themselves that they are of nill effect. This is syncretism – an act that the church did for various pagan activities in order to “Christianize” them – with questionable results.
If a person “poses” in everyday activity is innocent and innoculous. As a Christian who “poses” in a yoga class in the way of a Hindi god or goddess without knowledge is well – they should know better. Get a bike, a good exercise tape, or something else. I would much rather glorify God in my body than knowingly pose as a Hindi god or goddess in a Yoga technique.
Explain to me if you will the death of Uzzah in 1 Chronicles 13 in line of your position here.
Rob
Brother Rob,
First, as I indicated in the preface to my question, I do not know much about Hinduism. Thus, I do not yet have a position on this topic – no pun intended ;^)
Second, to further restate your position in an attempt to understand it, would it be fair to say that you are saying:
Would that be a good summary of what you are saying?
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
“What rastis and others are supposing is that the “acts” themselves are not evil themselves, and if people do not “believe” in the religious significance of the act themselves that they are of nill effect. This is syncretism”
By definition, that is not syncretism. If the acts are not inherently evil, then there is nothing to be syncretized. The way syncretism would occur here would be for someone to think that through Yoga-proper one was somehow being brought in communion with the transcendent (impersonal) and that this was the creator (the personal Deity of the scriptures).
I am not sure who your question concerning Uzzah was directed to, but after reading the passage I don’t understand where you were going with that.
Ditto Middle – my position exactly.
Rob
Brother Rob,
Thank you.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Rob’s four points, per FTME’s summary in comment #21 are almost exactly what I have heard in arguing against all kinds of practices. Take Rock music for example (or drums in music–including Christan music–to be more specific.).
They would say:
–>drums in tribal settings have been used to call up spirits and demons–demonic connection.
–>Drums are also used in rock music–drug/rebellion connection.
–>Therefore, one who uses drums is participating in the demonic (1 Cor 10). Not only should be not listen rock music, but it is sinful–if not demonic–to have drums in worship music.
They would always take this one step further and personify demonic worship music in calling out exhibits a and b: Bill Gaither and Steve Green. Few people today, outside of BJU and PCC, would make such arguments. The flaw with this argument is it fails to separate form and meaning as I keep stressing is essential to these discussions. If the drum is ontologically demonic, then we should not use them. But how can someone ever make the case that drums are? In attempting to make that case most people do so by skewing the line between form and meaning so that they are one and the same.
To look at the four points closer, it appears that the difference between sin or innocence–contrasted in points 2 and 4–is whether one is aware of the demonic roots or not. This appears somewhat relativistic when the choices are between innocence and demonic idolatry. With such high stakes, we need a better construct for evaluating practices.
On a scale of what should be important to Christian people, a whole lot of attention is paid to ‘controversial’ items. Not only in the blog-world.
A distraction?
Or an amusement?
Or a form of ‘sport’?
Maybe when there is no one left to throw stones at, people will then turn to Christ. But no, maybe not.
He’s already been crucified.
Christane – I did not bring up this discussion – I merely responded to it.
Rastis – false analogy. If one could truly, truly make an argument that the form of the drums themselves is tied to in some way ONLY to tribal or demonic worship instead of being found in all cultures and among all peoples (even Jewish) – more power to them. To tie my position to the BJU and PCC is being a fairly poor sport IMHO – kind of like me calling you an antinomian (which I am not doing). On the other hand Yoga itself is a prime component IN WORSHIP of Eastern religions (which Paul tied to the demonic). That is the cross you must bear (and bearing fairly poorly IMHO).
Rob
Rob,
I didn’t link your position and BJU PCC, I linked a view on drums to being held by the likes of BJU PCC.
Thank you for sharing your opinion.
Brother Rob,
After reading this back and forth, it seems that your position is really focused on the origin of a practice. If a practice has strictly pagan origins, we should avoid it once we know the origin.
This seems to mean that by your logic Christians should forgo participation in and viewing of the Olympic Games as they were initially a component of a Greek festival honoring the deity “Zeus” complete with animal sacrifices… a “prime component IN WORSHIP.”
We could also delve into the origins of yule logs, mistletoe and even the date of December 25. It seems that when we dig a little, a lot of what we might consider normal practices have very pagan roots.
How do you deal with the Olympics question? What about the pagan origins of some of the Christmas season?
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Well, Rob, at least my second comment explained my first one of ‘good grief’.
I think I’ve experienced a reaction to over-load of the heavy focus on what is ‘unacceptable’ to the self-righteous. Strange, it took something as silly as ‘yoga’ to bring out a strong reaction from me.
Not personally intended, I assure you.
To anyone still following the comments:
Here is an article from the NY times on the topic http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/nyregion/28yoga.html?_r=1
Thanks to Denny Burke for posting it http://www.dennyburk.com/yoga-redux/
and a friend for bringing it to my attention.
A few years ago during the television show, “Survivor: China” the contestants were taken to a “welcoming ceremony” inside of a Buddhist temple. The contestants were encouraged to “bow” toward the Buddha statue inside in a show of respect and tolerance, a “thank you” to their hosts. One lone Christian lady refused, stating it “did not feel right.” While she could show respect to people of other faiths such as the monks inside the temple, she refused to “honor” a statue made of stone – remembering well the admonition of the God of the commandments, “no graven images” and “no other gods before me.”
Several argued at the time that the Buddha itself was not a “god” that Buddhists worship. Ultimately in Eastern religions those honored or revered are not “gods” or “goddesses” who are supernatural divinities, but merely those who have entered “enlightenment” or “transcendence.” Figures such as Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha) and the over 330 million different Hindi gods and goddesses serve as “examples” and “encouragers” to enlightenment. They are not “worshiped” per se since everything is ultimately Brahman (a view known as “pantheism” – everything is God). Orthodox Buddhism takes the next logical leap – what we worship as “God” is merely “ourselves” in the same vein as the ancient sophist Protagoras: “man is the measure of all things.” Yoga then is seen as the technique of uniting with the “Atman” within – through exercise, work, intensive reflection, et. al. The “poses”, in the form of the various Hindi gods and goddesses, further helps the initiate to find the encouragement to further enlightenment.
Middle – while the background of the Olympic games may be intriguing, I don’t believe that it holds any relevance to the discussion here. While there may be pockets of people who hold the Greek gods in importance today, it is not a wide spiritual concern for me at the moment. There are however about 400 million people world wide who hold to some form of Hinduism – throw in the other Eastern religions with it and you have a fairly big number. While Tuesday is just Tuesday to me, and December is a cold month, Yoga has extreme social and religious significance among worshipers TODAY not centuries ago. The Olympics is just a sporting event (though it is said that the folks in the Olympic village often pay tribute the the goddess Diana in their sexual behavior) so I pay it little mind. Hinduism and New Age philosophy is a BIG issue – and a growing one in the church if the comments here are any indication.
Rob
Brother Rob,
You agreed to these two principles above:
And then you said:
I am not sure what to make of this. Is the application of these principles among Christians dependent on what is a wide spiritual concern for you at the moment? What of those who are practicing pagan religions and worshipping these false gods? Are you sending a mixed signal to them? Aren’t you really participating in demon worship? Or, to re-apply a quote by another:
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Middle -
One of the problems with reading posts is something called “skimming” of which I am guilty of. I must confess that i “skimmed” your list – it looked right, but now on the reading I must confess that in some ways is wrong – esp. with concerning the Olympics and days. My #32 is operant (though I feel I have been consistent throughout). And I should reiterate that inserting your words in my quote (for the record) is NOT ME.
My concern is that you want to harp about my inconsistencies, but do not want to broach the subject at hand – the infiltration of eastern religious philosophies and practices in Christ’s church. Those Muslims in Mordor certainly know about Hinduism – outside the tender box of the Middle East, the hottest spot in the world is the border between Pakistan and India. How is it then that our emissaries them could be grand apologists for Hindi practices?
Rob
Brother Rob,
Thank you for the retraction. Now my conclusion is that the only real difference you see between Yoga (as practiced by non-Hindu Americans) and the Olympics (as practiced by non-Pagan Americans) is the number of people still involved in idolatry within each system. Let me clarify a bit: Both have idolatrous origins and both are practiced by American Christians who either do not know of the origins or who choose only to participate while not intending their participation to be worship of false gods. The only real difference is that relatively few people in the world still use one as it was intended – idolatrously, while a relatively large number of people in the world still practice the other as it was intended – idolatrously.
If I am understanding you correctly, this means it is not the origins that so much concern you as the number of people currently using it to further their idolatry. Is this a better understanding of your position?
Forgive me for the many questions, I am simply trying to understand your position here as I am having a hard time figuring out how to apply it to other situations (i.e. the Olympics or pagan Christmas traditions). And I will “broach the subject at hand” after I am finished collecting data on the positions presented here and by others I am currently asking about this very topic. I just don’t want to form a conclusion without fully understanding the different perspectives first. Yours happens to be the one I do not yet fully understand.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East