I Want to be Like Lot When I Grow Up
Posted by Guest Author in Bible & Theology
Today’s guest post is from “Rastis.” Rastis has an undergraduate degree from SEBTS in Biblical Studies and the History of Ideas, and he is currently working on the field-based portion of a Masters in Missiology from SWBTS. He will soon be deploying to the Middle East with the IMB, and, for this reason, posts with a pseudonym. Rastis has served on staff with several churches, and is currently working with a Baptist association, directing local cross-cultural church planting. His passion is for interfaith evangelism and urban missions.
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I remember the first time I watched The Village. It was terrifying. Not so much because it was actually scary, but because it reminded me of a church I used to attend. The gist behind The Village is that there is a colony of people who have removed themselves from society in an attempt to keep themselves pure from the evil cities. What keeps people in line and in the confines of this small pseudo wilderness? They are afraid of the unnamable creatures which occasionally haunt the village. This was my church. We separated ourselves from the world (some would go as far as not driving on I-10 through Houston in order to avoid billboards—FYI, there is no way to drive through Houston without I-10) in hopes that we might retain personal holiness.
Enters Lot… He was the favorite whipping boy for evangelists, seminars, and youth camp speakers. After all, he typified everything that we were against. He left the “holiness” of the farm (the noble savage—Rousseau) for the pleasures of the city, becoming a cosmopolitan man, the first metrosexual. He persisted in his sin in spite of angelic warnings. The city corrupted his ability to lead his family spiritually evidenced by his wife adopting his urban values, he offered his daughters to the angry mob, and, finally, committed incest. So went their bombastic crucifixion of Lot.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that the Bible doesn’t actually teach this. Sure, the story goes something like that. But the way we typically cast Lot in the story tells more about ourselves and our view of the world than it does about Lot’s. Scripture explicitly states that Lot was a righteous man who was vexed by the urban sensuality (2 Pet 2:7). I studied twelve commentaries on the Genesis passage and only a few even referenced the 2 Peter passage. Those few commentators who did reference the “righteous Lot” passage did so in a dismissive way as though Peter was referencing something other than the account in Genesis. I am indebted to Ray Bakke’s Theology as Big as the City for pointing me in the right direction concerning Lot. It might be helpful to reread Genesis 18-19 to refresh your memory before continuing.
In addition to Peter’s declaration concerning Lot, I believe that the context of Genesis 18-19 provides insight into Lot’s true character—at least when read through different eyes. The accounts of Abraham in 18 and Lot in 19 are almost perfect parallels.
Both men demonstrated great hospitality.
→In 18, Abraham is visited by three men. He demonstrated great hospitality.
→Likewise, Lot implored the two visitors to stay at his house rather than sleep in the square (he knew the dangers…). They acted as if they would not heed his advice. Lot “pressed them strongly” and they complied. That is Middle Eastern hospitality for you. You refuse three times, and then do it anyway. Implicit in this hospitality is food, which he provided in the form of a “feast” (19:3) and protection, which he provided in the form of a feeble and misguided attempt to ward off the mob (19:7-8). While we would hopefully all agree that offering your daughters to a sexually perverted mob is wrong, his actions demonstrated his concern and dedication to uphold his hospitality.
Both men acted as intercessors.
→ When Abraham learned of the destruction to come upon the cities of the valley he acted as an intercessor.
→ When Lot learned of the destruction to come upon the cities of the valley he too acted as an intercessor. He begged for one of the cities in the valley to be given to him as a residence and not destroyed (19:20). The angels granted his request. In addition to this, he interceded on behalf of his guests (19:7-8) and was common fixture in the gates of the city (19:1).
Both men received sons.
→ The three visitors clarified the earlier promises of a “great nation” through the promise of a son.
→ At the end of 19, Lot receives two sons. While many blame Lot for the incest, I do not believe it is as bad as it sounds. First, Lot was drunk when it happened (a good case for moderation!). Second, the law had not been given yet (If you are going to nail him here, then you have to figure out where Cain found his wife…). Finally, and most importantly, Lot’s daughters were acting in faith. It is hard to read Genesis through puritan eyes. There is just a lot of weird sexuality in Genesis: Lamech starts polygamy, there is the whole “sons of God” and “daughters of men” thing, Lot impregnates his daughters, and then there is Tamar who just gets around and finally makes it with her father in law while playing the harlot. That is not to mention the animosity between Sarah and Hagar, and Rachael and Leah. All of these examples are important because of the promise of a deliverer in 3:15. I believe that all of these women acted in faith thinking that the deliverer would come soon, perhaps in their lifetime. If you haven’t figured it our already, quite a few of these women make it into the line of Christ. Abraham’s son of promise is an obvious favorite for the lineage. But don’t forsake the sordid woman of faith, Tamar. These two chapters are parallel even in these details. The nations from both of Lots sons are in the lineage as well. One became the father of the Moabites (Ruth and Boaz → Obed → Jesse → David) and the other became the father of the Ammonites (Solomon sired a son with an Ammonite). If you are still bent on saying it was sin, then it only goes to show that moving to the suburbs and isolating ourselves (e.g. the cave) from those worldly city dwellers (e.g. the inhabitants of Sodom) does not really protect us from sin!
When one views the account of Lot in the context of the previous chapter, it becomes clear that Lot is not a simpleton wandering about Vanity Fair. Nevertheless, Waltke points out a great irony between the two accounts: “Lot tries to be a blessing but instead appears as a buffoon. He fails as a host, as a citizen, as a husband and as a father. He wants to protect his guests but needs to be protected by them; he tries to save his family, and they think he is joking. His salvation depends on God’s mercy” (Genesis, 270).
What, then, was he doing in the city? The same thing we ought.
The more wicked a place is, the more it should consume our thoughts. Both Abraham and Lot wished to save the city. Abraham interceded on behalf of the whole city, not just for Lot and his family. Had it not been for the whole town rising up against the two visitors I believed God would have spared the city. Jeremiah 5:1 tells us that it only takes one person to save the city. This was also true in Lot’s case, albeit, not with Sodom itself. There were actually five cities slated for destruction (The cities of the valley were Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim, and Zoar—Gen 14:2). While neither Abraham nor Lot saved Sodom, Lot did save Zoar.
There is more to intercession than begging God. There is a need for presence and proclamation. As it relates to presence, we should run to the city rather than away from it. Lot did love the city, on this we agree. But he loved the city for the sake of justice rather than “worldliness”. Lot was found in the city gates (19:1). When he confronted the would be assailants, they were quick to remind him that he was an outsider—they were appalled that he was acting like a judge over them (19:9). We should be the salt and the light to the darkest places first. There is always a relationship between the presence of the godly and the preservation of the community.
There is much talk about tithing money. Can we talk about tithing people? When the Jews were ready to rebuild Jerusalem, the chose one in ten among themselves to go and be part of the project (Neh. 11:1-2). Consider how the unwilling dispersion of the Jews enabled the Apostolic church planting movement. Paul was able to quickly establish churches throughout the Greco-Roman world since the Jews had synagogues in every city.
It seems that Lot had more impetus to go than we do—especially those of us who think our primary purpose is purity. Our desire to live where it is safe, small, and segregated puts us harrowingly close to being guilty of Sodom’s true sin. We always characterize Sodom over the homosexual issue. Since that isn’t really a struggle for most of us, we can feel good about ourselves and relieved that we are not near God’s judgment. However, a quick glance at Ezekiel 16:49-50 will reveal that we commit the same sin for which Sodom was judged. She “had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.” Those who lived in The Village learned the hard way that in spite of their separation from the evil cities, sin is ever present within the camp. The idea that one can avoid sin based on proximity is little more than Christianized humanism. The Bible says that sin comes from within.
What then are we to say about facing the danger of going to the city? The answer is found in Lot’s story. Peter used him as an example to demonstrate God’s faithfulness. 2 Peter 2:7-10 makes the point that God is able to separate between the righteous and unrighteous. While the whole earth should tremble before him, “if he rescued righteous Lot… then, the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials.”
Lot wasn’t afraid to go to the “evil cities.” He wasn’t afraid of what other good people would think of him for going there. He stood in the gates and interceded. I hope to be an urban missionary like Lot when I grow up!
Rastis blogs regularly at http://offtheshire.blogspot.com



Great post! I really enjoyed reading.
The title here had a negative affect from the residual of past teachings on Lot. Somehow, I would not place myself in the position he did, or, I don’t think I would, but, I understand how he tried to compromise what he allowed. Your point found in 2 Peter 2:7 reminded me of the cloud of witness found in Hebrews 11. It seems that the Holy Spirit in His inspiration removed the sins from the list of those found in faith and only mentioned their faith and good works. When God says, “I will remember your sins no more” He does it. The best “Lot” example I know today is my father. He sins like most of the patriarchs and, yet, is faithful to God in soul winning. Amongst the sin the light shines through for me. The main problem is that others cannot separate it and view him most as a hypocrite. I don’t know if I could say that I want to grow up to be like Lot, however, it is my fate, as well, and I will embrace what comes of my past for the glory of God and keep pressing toward the mark.
Great post.
By the way, I work in Houston and do try to avoid I-10 regardless of the signs.
Bruce,
Thanks for the comment.In the christian world we tend to either make someone out to be perfect or we bury them under their sin. I believe a balanced approach is better.
Rastis,
1. Thanks for this thoughtful and provocative post. We are grateful for your contribution here at sbcIMPACT!
2. “The Village” is one of my favorite all-time films. I think we all could learn a lot from taking to heart the underlying message it communicates.
3. I agree with the basic thesis behind what you say here, but am not so sure that Lot is the best example. Yes, we do need to be bold and to leave our “safe,” comfortable, moral fortresses in order to go out into a lost and dying world that needs the gospel, and live as salt and light in the midst of the darkness. And, I also agree that the large cities of the world are especially in need of people who will be willing to do just that.
On the other hand, however, as I read through the overall narrative of Genesis in context, it seems to me that the author (inspired by the Holy Spirit) is making an intentional contrast between the faith response of obedience on the part of Abraham, and the flawed, “mixed motive” response of Lot. Although Abraham also had his share of flaws, and bad decisions, the bottom line impression I get from reading the narrative as a whole is that Abraham heard the voice of God, and made his key decisions in life out of faith and obedience. Although Lot was indeed a “righteous man,” and I fully expect to find him in heaven, it seems to me that a lot of the grief he and his family went through came as a result of him not specifically hearing the voice of God before making major life decisions.
It is true that God eventually used the bloodline of Lot as a blessing and a part of the lineage of our Savior. However, it is also true that Moab and Ammon were enemies of the People of God, who created a lot of heartache along the way in their pilgrimage toward their eternal destination.
The verse that comes to mind, when I think of Lot, is 1 Cor. 3:15: “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.”
But, then again, I do admit that, in order to come to the conclusion you do, or the conclusion I do, regarding Lot, we must do a bit of “reading between the lines” either way.
4. In my personal life and ministry, I have wrestled quite a bit with the issues at stake in what you write here. Our journey in life is indeed one of faith, which, at times, carries with it, a good bit of risk. However, we must also be faithful stewards of the task God gives us to take care of our families, and to see that they are given the resources they need to be obedient disciples.
I shared some of my thoughts about all this (and mentioned Lot along the way) in a post here at sbcIMPACT! back almost 2 years ago:
http://www.sbcimpact.net/2008/01/03/missions-and-family/
I agree that while there are some points of comparison there are also, as you have pointed out, many of contrast. I think at the heart of the contrasts is the covenant. This is what makes the distinction between Abraham’s and Lot’s lineage. And that was the point behind Waltke’s quote. He points out that there are many similarities in the stories but that Lot’s outcome is vastly different than Abraham’s. Lot appears to be a baffoon, and Abraham acts faithfully from his covenant position (hence the reason he prayed for the whole city and not just his kin).
“But, then again, I do admit that, in order to come to the conclusion you do, or the conclusion I do, regarding Lot, we must do a bit of “reading between the lines” either way.”
I agree. I think the context helps us understand both how we should read the story in light of Peter’s declaration about lot and about how we see the difference the covenant makes in Abraham’s life vs. Lot’s (though I think we can even see that Lot is a benefactor in the blessing of the covenant through Abraham–he was, after all, spared/rescued on more than one occasion.)
Great post on mission and family, BTW. I think most thinking people struggle through these issues. I know in my desire for urban missions there are many potential hazzards that my friends and extended family worry about. Perhaps I will post more on that later, but I see a definate danger which creeps into the spirituality of suburbanites. I see 2nd gen. christians grow up with as lax view of the faith because they are raised in such a happy bubble where the lives of sinner and saint aren’t all that different. But do we go to “Sodom”?
Brother Rastis,
Thank you for bringing this perspective to light. Peter’s insistence that God “preserves” and “rescues” defines the context it seems that carries forward from the first chapter of this second letter……when he said…..
2 Peter 1:20-21 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, (21) for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
Which ties back to the overarching context that Peter is driving home, where God has supplied His prophecy through certain men “having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust”….
2 Peter 1:2-4 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; (3) seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. (4) For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
Abraham and Lot,…rascals in their own situations should be recognized as righteous. Yet not a righteousness of their own or by their own interpretation. Not because of their inclusion in scripture or for anything they have done, but only in light of the “One” that has rescued them. So, I agree with you that we may want to be like Lot in the sense of “righteous rescue”,…although we have a greater knowledge and a responsibility of “delighting in God’s Law” (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, O LORD, And Your law is my delight”)…..so that we may avoid certain sin that so easily besets us.
Our brother Peter does help us see the bigger and more accurate picture of these men of old and their God.
Blessings,
Chris
Very interesting. I’m going to have to chew on this, because I have always come from the “Lot lost his family through compromise” school of interpretation. He was a righteous man, but did not stand up for his beliefs and therefore did not affect his community or even his family.
I’m going to have to think this through.
If the ultimate purpose of a blog is to make someone think, your first Impact blog has been very successful for me.
Unfortunately, thinking sometimes causes me to sprain a brain, so I will have to go about it carefully.
Dave,
As I agreed with David, there is a certain ammount of “between the linesness.”. we have the fact that Lot was in Sodom. The “why” is a different subject. How we answer the why largely depends on our own perspective. Back in the day when I viewed the world as evil and to be avoided, there was much to bury Lot under. As my views have changed to a more loving and incarnational approach, I view Lot as a person and the story as a whole more redemptively.
I’m just trying to work through it without injuring my cognitive processes. Us old folks have to be careful when we consider change.
Three points on Lot’s Wife as some of you have heard before
1)She Halted
2)She Was Exalted
3)She got Salted
On another note.
DAvid Rogers, you may want to see the kind words I had for you in comment at current blog of http://www.bteditor.blogspot.com
Brother Dan,
I can understand why you are having “brain strain”…it’s a way of life for me
The title of Rastis’s article is very provocative. I’m pretty certain that from what I know of Lot,…I would not want to be like him; at least according to some of his activities….being drunk, sexually vulnerable with his daughters, etc. But, I certainly would want to be like him in his relationship with God; declared righteous.
Even though there are theologians of late that are refining our understanding of Lot’s plight in a nasty city, where he was more than likely in a position of authority among the cities leaders, etc., there tends to be ample evidence that his (Lot’s) leadership and exposure to the cities sin yielded some confusion about God within his own family. Spinning Lot’s willingness to be drunk, and countering the daughters reasoning to carry on their father’s bloodline is to misunderstand the ways of a righteous man. In other words, the sin of Lot and his wife and his daughters is evident and evil, regardless of his status as righteous.
The fact of God rescuing Lot is a beautiful thing for all of us that sin.
Blessings,
Chris
Meant….brother Dave, not Dan.
-cj
Rastis,
Is there a commentary/book or something online that is the basis of your thoughts here (or are they original)? I would love to study this more. Like I said, it goes against everything I have ever thought, read or preached about Lot.
However, that NT passage about “righteous Lot” always bugged me a little.
Is there a resource you would recommend?
Chris,
“Spinning Lot’s willingness to be drunk, and countering the daughters
reasoning to carry on their father’s bloodline is to misunderstand the ways of a righteous man.”
The point was that Lot was not complicit.
“In other words, the sin of Lot and his wife and his daughters is evident and evil, regardless of his status as righteous.”
In my mind, Lot vs. his wife and daughters are two separate issues. It is clear that Lot’s wife was was evil–”she got salted.” Lots daughters are debatable. If you go after them for their indiscretion, then what about Tamar, Cain and Able, Abraham, etc? I am not actually trying to justify their behavior. Just looking at it through different eyes. We know the what of their actions. It is the why that I think needs a second look.
So what exactly would Lot’s sin be?
And just for the record, the title of the post is a bit tongue in cheek.
Dave,
check out Ray Bakke’s book “Theology as Big as the City.”
http://www.amazon.com/Theology-As-Big-City/dp/0830818901/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259772623&sr=8-1
I read his chapter on Lot which messed me up and sent me thinking. After studying 12 commentaries, I realized that most people just dont know what to do with Lot. I dont recall which of the commentaries it was, but one of them pointed out that Lot’s actions were parallel with Abraham’s. That provided the bridge for me between Peter and Lot. Lot was acting just like Abraham. Lot appeared as a buffoon in his results, but he was going through the same actions. The difference between Lot and Abraham, in their results, had to do with the covenant.
Most people get hung up on the whole homosexual and incest thing. When you go to Eze 16 and see that they were really judged for living the “American dream” and didn’t have concern for the poor, Lot stands out in greater contrast. He was hospitable and willing to protect the outsiders at almost any expense.
I would love to flesh all of this out in another post some time (“the humanistic ethics of separation”).
Bakke’s book is good. He is a bit funny on his exegesis at times. He also has another called “The urban Christian” which is more pastoral in nature. Both are good book; they will make you uncomfortable though.
Brother Rastis,
I thought the title was a little tongue in cheek (thus the provocative statement I alluded to). Also, I was not trying to impugn your overall theme, because I believe that the involvement of Lot in scripture has historically been used from a perspective moreover of sanctification and man’s actions, instead of God’s sovereignty in saving and rescuing. So, a true look at Abraham and Lot will or should yield God’s activity as the premium, not the ways of man.
D.A. Carson has captured the thoughts of Morschauser (2003) in his Commentary on the New Testaments use of the Old Testament: Beale & Carson, pages 1051-1055. Morschauser has outlined some of the Near Eastern parallels in his findings which do provide some interesting thoughts on this subject.
What I do find interesting is Lot’s decision to make his way to this city as reflected in…. Genesis 13:10-12 Lot lifted up his eyes and saw all the valley of the Jordan, that it was well watered everywhere–this was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah–like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt as you go to Zoar. (11) So Lot chose for himself all the valley of the Jordan, and Lot journeyed eastward. Thus they separated from each other. (12) Abram settled in the land of Canaan, while Lot settled in the cities of the valley, and moved his tents as far as Sodom.
Just this past winter, I was standing on the grounds that we believe to be the city of Sodom….and the scriptures have described its legacy very accurately from what is there now. It appears to me that Lot was a righteous man, and like so many of us… maybe even justifying our inclusion in certain cultural or roles in society. Lot appeared to be someone that was respected in the city of Sodom… he was found in the gate of the city, and was not pushed beyond questions concerning his visitors. So, Lot was seen as part of the city and it leadership, although not trusted completely as evidenced by the reaction of the group (other leaders) that came to inquire of the visitors. If I can learn anything from Lot,…it would be to remain vigilant in the midst of perversion and evil….possibly flee, as we see this was the plan of God for Lot.
In our little town just outside of Nashville proper,…we have a section of the city not too far from where I live that is a bit terrifying…shades of Sodom. We walk through it and share the gospel. There is a young man that lives in the community that is helping us now….. What we do in the city is important….as in the case of Lot, he seemed to try to do what was right, yet a lot of the things that did occur cannot be left as innocent or acts of none complicity. Getting drunk is certainly complicit resulting in the sexual acts. Having “relations” with his daughters, even in drunkenness is complicit wouldn’t you say, he certainly wasn’t unconscious was he?
Blessings,
Chris
Chris,
I think we are on the same page, for the most part. Lets talk about your last paragraph:
“Getting drunk is certainly complicit resulting in the sexual acts. Having “relations” with his daughters, even in drunkenness is complicit wouldn’t you say, he certainly wasn’t unconscious was he?”
Here is where I struggle. It is undisputed that lot was drunk and slept with his daughters. It is also clear in the text that it was their idea.
Here is the rub: on what basis do we call incest wrong at this stage of biblical revelation. I think that prelaw, there are some things that are universally wrong. Cain killed Able, and God judged him for it. This was before the giving of the law, but God still held him accountable to it. Does incest fall under this? Part of me says yes (cause I live in the modern age and it is just gross if nothing else…), and part of me says no. Incest occurred numerous times in Genesis. Where did Cain get his wife? The least speculative answer says that he married a sister. Abraham, married his half sister (Gen 20:12). Most apologists and theologians who deal with difficult passages in the Bible justify both of these accounts on the basis that the law had not been given yet.
So, on what basis would you call his incest wrong? Do you transport the law back as a universal? Or do you brush it under the rug since the law had not been given? I am not sure I have a hard and fast answer, though I tend to agree with the latter.
At any rate, I do think that Lots daughters were trying to preserve the line in the future hope of a deliverer. Whether or not there actions are right, i think there motives were better than we typically think (similar to Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar–good intentions, just not living out the promise).
As far as Lot not being complicit… I am personally not in the abstinence crowd (concerning alcohol that is–I am all for abstaining from incest and in this conversation we need to clarify!) so I am going to make an argument I wouldn’t normally. If alcohol is a drug as some in the abstinence crowd suggest, then how do you hold someone responsible for their actions while drugged, especially if someone else drugged them. At most, we can say that he was complicit in getting drunk (which in the context of the alcohol debate I do affirm is sin). But the scripture is clear that he had no knowledge of them laying down or rising up (19:33, 35)
It is still gross though…
Rastis,
In your last comment to Chris, you say:
“Whether or not there actions are right, i think there motives were better than we typically think (similar to Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar–good intentions, just not living out the promise).”
This is getting back to my point about not only the parallels between Abraham and Lot, but also the contrast. As you mention in your reply to me, the “heart of the contrasts is the covenant.” I am uncertain, however, if Lot was not given the same opportunity as Abraham to share in the blessings of the covenant. The difference I see between the two is that Abraham’s response was primarily one of faith and obedience, while it is not so clear that the same was true of Lot.
As far as motives are concerned, I think it is not a stretch to say that Cain’s motives, in bringing his offering to the Lord, were “good.” Yet, they were not based on faith and obedience, but rather his personal impression of what was “good.”
There is much a person could take an exegetical and theological objection to in this post and be firmly on a strong biblical foundation, but what’s the use?
But I will say this of one particular quote; First, it is just unwise. Secondly, it truly saddens me, that the one who said it is working with a local Baptist association and will be deployed by the IMB of the SBC to the field if this quote really reflects his position:
“….Lot was drunk when it happened (a good case for moderation!).”
Moderation?? How unwise. How so very sad.
I may very well be the only person who thinks this to be unwise or sad, but I really don’t care, because I have lived in “real world culture” far too long to agree with this view on beverage alcohol that is becoming so prevalent among Baptist preachers and missionaries. Or…….Maybe I have just lived too long and am so very out of touch….but, on the other hand….Maybe it is time for guys like me to not worry “being out of touch.”
Maybe guys like me just need to preach more, longer and louder that this kind of compromise is taking the world to hell in a wagon and the use of beverage alcohol is STILL ONE OF THE HORSES PULLING IT.
My friend, By moderation I meant that he shouldnt have been drinking. You took it to mean that we ought to be drinking. …your thinking here worries me.
As fun as it would be, I am going to pass up the alcohol topic and stay on target.
“There is much a person could take an exegetical and theological objection to in this post and be firmly on a strong biblical foundation, but what’s the use?”
Actually, if you are going to make blanket statements implying error it might be useful for you to demonstrate it.
Relating to you saying; “….your thinking worries me,” remember I said, “I really don’t care.”
As to my blanket statement; Read it again: ““There is much a person could take an exegetical and theological objection to in this post and be firmly on a strong biblical foundation, but what’s the use?”
There was no “implication.” I made a declarative statement.
As to me “demonstrating” anything; Remember I said, “but what’s the use.”
I said that because if you slept through that many classes at SEBTS, what’s the use of trying to persuade you on a blog comment thread. It’s hopeless.
BTW, I really do mean this:
“Secondly, it truly saddens me, that the one who said it is working with a local Baptist association and will be deployed by the IMB of the SBC to the field if this quote really reflects his position:
“….Lot was drunk when it happened (a good case for moderation!).”
And since I really do mean it with all my heart and soul and it grieves me greatly that the trustees of the IMB would approve you to the mission field I see no reason to engage for it would be an exercise in futility on my part.
And, obviously some of the guys who post here regularly approve your post and frankly, that is very disappointing also. So it would definitely be an exercise in futility now, would it not?
Brother, we will have to leave it at this: I am more than willing to discuss any or all of this with if you are interested in talking about the issues. Till then, Peace.
Brother Rastis,
The Torah is clear in Genesis 2, that a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. Brothers and sisters did enter into these types of Holy relationships and then further into history with the advent of various religions other laws pertaining to what is termed incest were and are maintained in certain cultures. Israel was given more specific instruction. Some argue that since the Torah (Leviticus) does not specifically call for a prohibition between father and daughter that the omission somehow justifies the relationship. Genesis 2 clears up that confusion. So Abraham, Lot and others have no excuse, since Adam and Eve present to us Holy matrimony as authored by God. Father/Daughter sexual relations were always unholy as described in the beginning, regardless of the actor.
Additionally, the fruit of the Spirit was alive and well beginning in Adam and Eve….so Lot had the opportunity to not be drunk with wine, and be filled with the Spirit, even as he drank from the provisions given by God in the land. We should not believe that the fruit of the Spirit somehow only arrives at Pentecost. In other words, Lot, just as we have by indwelling… had the same Spirit to guide him…but the flesh was weak, he became drunk and lay with his daughters. Not remembering the event is still no excuse for getting into the situation, it further intensifies the consequences of his sin. His defense would amount to the same excuse that Eve uttered… Genesis 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” And the woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” …as if since the serpent induced her, she is then not complicit with her actions.
Again, I believe that God has shown us “rescue and sovereignty”… both in Abraham and Lot…. just as we are today. So, I think your post helps uncover some of the preconceived poor teaching hoisted upon Lot that may have been historically developed in some seminary environments.
Blessings,
Chris
Rastis,
In the post when discussing incest between Lot and his daughters, you said, “Lot was drunk when it happened (a good case for moderation!)”
In your comment to CB Scott, you said, “By moderation I meant that he shouldnt have been drinking.”
You’ve got an undergraduate degree from SEBTS and if I understand correctly, you’re currently/soon to be on the field as a 2+2er through the IMB and SWBTS. Sounds like you need to brush up on the difference between “moderation” and “abstinence” as it relates to alcohol!
I don’t know about Southwestern, but the use of alcohol as a beverage is grounds for termination of IMB missionaries. If you advocate “moderation” when what you mean is really abstinence, you’re going to find yourself under some unwanted, but highly appropriate, scrutiny!
Just some friendly advice,
KF, IMB M
KF,
As I understand it, the IMB policy has to do with the actual practice of total abstinence, and not with advocating a certain view of moderation vis-a-vis abstinence. Perhaps, as you mention, advocating certain views will place you under added scrutiny from certain sectors. However, I would like to think that we have not come to the place in which there are tacit “gag rules” about what we are allowed to openly explore with others in regard to the truth of what Scripture actually teaches on matters such as this.
Thanks for the heads up KF. I have been around Baptist institutions long enough to understand the politics.
For the record, as it relates to practice, I do abstain since I am linked with a number of organizations which have abstinence policies. But I do think freely about the topic. I am not really “advocating” any one view on alcohol. It is a non-issue to me. What should truly “grieve” us is that there is not more Christian charity among our ranks on this topic. We are known in the world more for our sociopolitical views rather than for our love of the brethren. Regardless of our position on alcohol, or any other topic for that matter, we should disagree with grace and refrain from ad hominem and character defamation.
I agree with what David said concerning practice and belief as it relates to IMB. I uphold all IMB policies regardless of my beliefs. Where I am headed alcohol is a legal and religious taboo, so it isnt an issue. I do believe in being all things to all people, and doing everything in moderation.
Concerning my remarks concerning moderation and lot:
I do realize the difference in the abstinence camps and moderation camps. However, the abstinence position is a subset of the moderation position. Draw a large circle with a smaller one inside the bigger one. The small one is abstinence, and the larger is moderation. To abstain is to moderate ones self, though one can be in the moderate camp and not the abstinence camp.
In the context of my remarks concerning Lot, it is clear that I was saying he should have had less alcohol, if any. To take a statement saying that one person should have had less to mean that all people should have some is logically absurd. It is similar to people who take the remark about “everything in moderation” and “all things to all people” and then ask “So will you become druggie to reach druggies?” It is clear that people who ask such questions do not understand what is meant by moderation and for their own safety they should abstain.
Rastis,
Maybe you don’t intend to advocate any one view on alcohol but the truth is that both our words and actions bear witness to what we believe. A statement like “Lot’s example is a good case for moderation,” could easily lead people to believe that the speaker thinks people ought to drink alcoholic beverages in moderation. You could have written, “Lot’s example is a good case for abstinence” but you didn’t. These two statements do not communicate the same thing, regardless of your abstinence-is-a-subset-of-moderation idea.
I’m not against “thinking freely” about this topic. But as a missionary, what I share with others and the witness I give is one of abstinence. In my corner of the world the abuse of alcohol is and has for centuries been a scourge on this culture. Being “charitable” to those who suggest that moderation is a viable approach might be intellectually interesting but in reality it is a pernicious idea and has proven to be the prelude to tragic consequences in the majority of lives here.
KF
Abstinence is not a “subset of moderation.”
Abstinence is a position of its own. Moderation is a position of its own.
The question for all of us in any ministry is which will most greatly glorify the Father and advance the cause of the Kingdom?
The realities of real world culture/cultures must be considered. It is absolutely unwise for those of us trying to gain a hearing for the gospel before a lost and broken world to use or promote in any way that which has aided in so much of the brokenness.
Brother cb,
Do you think that a Saint, controlled by the Spirit’s gift of “self control”, with wisdom is able to partake in the drinking of the fruit of the vine that is fermented?
To qualify, …with the understanding that “discernment” is different than wisdom and…. not trying to make a case for moderation.
Blessings,
Chris
Chris,
As you know every believer is a saint. I am sure you agree Scripture teaches such.
OK, agreeable facts out of the way; Here is my opinion. I think that is what you are asking me for, correct?
I believe that any saint that is walking a Spirit-filled, daily life and has surrendered himself to the Spirit seeking self-control that he may best glorify the Father and make the manifestation of the gospel of the Son the highest priority in his life will make every effort to humbly abstain from anything that may hinder him in his mission.
In our culture anything that may hinder him would include, but not be limited to: gluttony, smoking, foul language and suggestive behavior, wrongful sexual behavior, the use of beverage alcohol, rude behavior toward the weak, young, infirm, aged or of the opposite sex, and cowardliness in not protecting the afore mentioned from evident threats of evil, etc.
Chris, you and I are to walk circumspectly in our journey here because we are in a constant state of spiritual warfare and should never give opportunity to the enemy to gain a stronghold in our lives. We are to be holy as is our Father. We are to flee even the appearance of evil. Our mission is to glorify God an carry out the Great Commission.
Chris, I have and still do struggle with a lot of things as a saint of the living God. Part of my struggle will always be because I grew up on a flat rock just outside the gates of hell and made a pretty good living being mean as a Cottonmouth snake or a gut shot bear. But one thing I never did struggle with was beverage alcohol. The reason was because I saw a lot of good men who also made their livings being mean as a Cottonmouth snake or a gut shot bear have their fine careers be shortened due to the use of beverage alcohol (even in moderation) which took away their mental “edge” and caused them to be sloppy in their “chosen professions.”
Chris, when God saved me and gave me a new heart by washing me in the atoning Blood of the Lamb and called me to a new life and service, I determined I was not going to use what I had refused to use then because it could have easily hindered me from being the best at being mean that I could be and survive to tell it.
I abstained from beverage alcohol to be the best at being mean, make a good living and glorify myself.
Surely then, I should abstain from the use of beverage alcohol to be the best witness for Jesus I can, live holy before God and man and glorify my Father.
I know that even small amount of beverage alcohol impair people and I just don’t want to be impaired. And if I willfully impair myself, I am willfully unwise. And if I am willfully unwise, I am willfully sinful. And if I am willfully sinfully I cannot glorify my Father to the utmost.
Now, Chris, that is my answer. And quite frankly, I believe my answer will stand scrutiny.
cb
I agree, CB, that you have a very solid position. I was raised in a Southern Baptist pastor’s home, a “Leave-It-to-Beaver” kind of upbringing – different from what you described. I have never touched alcohol in my life (except cough syrup and a surprise at a communion service one time).
Here is my question: Is the answer you give the only one a spirit-filled Christian can give?
Every Spirit-filled Christian must reject lying and gossip and immorality and greed and…well, you get the picture.
But, can a person drink in moderation and be a Spirit-filled Christian at the same time?
My position is similar to yours. I just believe it is a personal, moral choice, not a universal mandate.
Are we still friends?
Dave,
We are friends. Dave I have many friends who use beverage alcohol.
Let me answer your question this way if you will:
Can a Spirit-filled Christian cuss from time-to-time? Well, yes, I guess he/I can. But I assure he/I is not at his best when he/I does is he/I?
Dave, I believe Jesus deserves and demands our best.
If I use beverage alcohol in moderation or cuss in moderation I am not giving Jesus my best. It is impossible for me to be at my best if I allow these things to beset me.
Jesus deserves and demands the best. And I need to always be willing to give Him my dead level best.
Dave, if you ever hire a man to protect your life, you will fully expect him to give you his best. He may be “protective ability filled to the hilt” and be “fully” armed with the best of firearms and edged weapons, but if you catch him drinking on the job you will replace him, right? Why? Because you want him at his all-time, dead-level best when he is on the job.
Well, Dave, you and I are always “on the job” ; 24/7/365 as ambassadors of Christ in a fallen and broken world and before our family and friends. Therefore we are always to be at our full-time, dead-level best. And if I use beverage alcohol I will not be at my full-time, dead-level best.
And frankly Dave, being my full-time, dead-level best for Jesus is far more important than being at my full-time, dead-level best at protecting your life, even though I am sure your life would deserve the best I could offer.
Bottom line. What I offer Jesus should never be impaired, even moderately.
cb
“A statement like “Lot’s example is a good case for moderation,” could easily lead people to believe that the speaker thinks people ought to drink alcoholic beverages in moderation.”
That’s not exactly what I said…
Someone taking me saying that Lot should have had less alcohol to mean that we ought to be drinking is as logical as taking me saying that Lot shouldn’t have slept with his daughters to mean that we ought to sleep with ours…
“Being “charitable” to those who suggest that moderation is a viable approach might be intellectually interesting but in reality it is a pernicious idea and has proven to be the prelude to tragic consequences in the majority of lives here.”
Love of the brethren is commanded. Jesus is clear that love is the defining mark of the believers.
While I realize that alcohol has destructive effects {as does food, sex, parents, churches, guns, cars, etc.} attributing societal collapse to secondary causes (“fruit” rather than “root”) is reductionistic, overly simplistic, and borderline humanistic. The problem is sin, the answer is Jesus.
Rastis,
Nobody in this comment thread attributed “societal collapse to secondary causes.”
Your argument that anyone here has been “reductionistic, overly simplistic, and borderline humanistic” is a tired and worn out argument.
My little girls learned in Sunday School (a very good Sunday School) that the primary cause of all of humanity’s problem/problems is due to being depraved of heart even in our mother’s womb.
You will get no cigar for that one.
cb
I’m not sure about moderation, CB, but I hate smoking. Why are you bringing up cigars?
Honest answer. Worried about Florida?
CB
Here is the line:
“{Moderation/Drinking} has proven to be the prelude to tragic consequences in the majority of lives here.”
It is simplistic and reductionistic in the sense that there are many factors {if we are looking externally} which wreck peoples lives. Using a word like “majority” seems to exaggerate his position.
It is humanistic in the sense that it is attributing corruption to environment {behaviorism}.
I dont see how that is overused as I have only used it once…
Rastis,
It is overused because it has been trotted out by many before you who obviously have been listening to the same guys in the break room at school who have not seen the real world culture damage caused by depraved people aiding their depravity by the use of beverage alcohol.
It seems to me that many who are always saying we must confront culture live isolated from the reality of culture and would run like rabbits if real world culture blew its foul breath in their faces or slapped them in the face with something besides supposition.
Brother, some of us have been out here in the “culture” dealing with the realities of the “culture” preaching the same gospel to the “culture” over and over long before anyone ever came along and told us to be “relevant” to the “culture.”
It is the gospel that changes lives. And a sharp minded, “abstaining” preacher is far more effective in the “culture” than is a dull minded, “moderated” preacher any day of the week.
You want relevant and effective and real and non-humanistic and sin fighting and uncompromising stand up, blood and guts, grit and steel Christianity in the culture, there, Rastis?
Well then, stand up on your hind legs and declare that the use of beverage alcohol by an already depraved man will make him more willing to be incestuous with his own children and if you ever catch him being incestuous with his own children, you will reach down his throat and pull his guts out his mouth as you dial up the State Police to come and haul his sorry carcass off to jail.
Then tell him; BTW, even though you are too sorry to feed guts to a caged bear at the zoo, if you will repent of your sin and believe the gospel you can be saved even if you do spend the rest of your life in prison as you should.
The reason he can be saved is because Jesus came to save depraved sinners no matter how depraved they have become or what they used to aid them in their depraved acts of which beverage alcohol has aided the depravity of a many incestuous man other than Lot.
Try that on for size there, Rastis. You might not believe it now, but it will work. It always has and it always will.
Dave,
I fear Timmy might run through the SABANATION life Caster Oil through a goose.
That is my honest answer.
But I am a Sabanite. And therefore, I will cheer for the boys in crimson till the last minute and be looking for Mount Cody to hit Timmy so hard he don’t have to buy a ticket back to the Philippines for his next mission trip.
ROLL TIDE
Rastis,
I just want to say one thing and then I guess I need to let this alone.
I believe you are a brother. I don’t doubt that one bit. You are probably pretty smart. You are also cocky as a Bantam Rooster just like a many of the young “theologs” I knew at SEBTS back in the day.
In time, you will probably (if you stay close to Jesus) do well for the Kingdom after you learn what is real and what ain’t.
But let me say this about your post which is probably what set me off on this little set-to:
I have dealt with many incestuous men in one way or another. In every case except one I found two common factors involving each man. One was the use of beverage alcohol and the second was the use of pornography.
Those two things have aided the depravity of many men to do terrible things that would make a goat puke to their own children.
And my brother, what they have done to their children are the things of which nightmares are made. So for me, Rastis and certainly for a many abused children, you handled the story of Lot far too lightly to be relevant to postmodern “culture.”
cb
Brother cb,
I somehow knew you would have a consistent answer on this subject. I love that about you!
As you know, I abstain from beverage alcohol (as I would think you do), but for a different reason possibly than to assign evil to the fermentation as if it is a… “form of” (and I am not saying you specifically assign evil to the fermentation, as some would). The evil when present, in being drunk on the fruit of the vine that has fermented, I believe, is in the heart…not in the fermented fruit. I believe that is what the bible teaches (I am willing to change my mind if someone can show me otherwise). As you have illustrated there is evil that erupts out of a heart of a man that is set (what a man thinks) on being drunk, that is set on fulfilling his evil intentions, that is set on allowing himself a testimony to the world that is tarnished or could care less about their brothers and sisters (I am speaking of those that call themselves pastors),…I can also show you men that are not set on being drunk, are very aware of their testimony and are always mindful of things that may make their brother or sister stumble….and they drink fruit of the vine that is fermented. I have not seen them drunk in any instance, nor really expect to, nor do I inspect their wine cabinets looking for clues that might lead me to assume they have been drunk.
In the wrestling over the use of fermentation, what is not discussed very much, but should be,… is “discernment”. The reason I do not drink beverage alcohol, recreational drinks, hard liquor,…what ever trade name that is popular today is one of “discernment”, which hopefully yields an environment of wisdom (seems to work for me). Discerning evil brings into play “the acts and motives” of the heart. Some preachers wrongly accuse “fermentation” as of some sort of evil (as if it, the fermentation has a motive), when the truth teaches us that it is the heart that is deceitfully wicked and preserves the need to run rapidly to evil.
Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: (17) Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, (18) A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, (19) A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.
James 3:13-18 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. (14) But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. (15) This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. (16) For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. (17) But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. (18) And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
We live in a time not different from any other with respect to “self control”. Lot knew better than to be drunk with wine. He knew better than to sleep with his daughters (even as scripture gives us the history of his stupor). Lot knew the consequences of his lack of discernment and the potential of being drunk. So, Lot has no defense whatsoever for his behavior, lack of discernment, lack of self control, resulting in a gross lack of wisdom.
God “rescued” Lot from these things! What a message! Maybe he (Lot) made better choices by the power of the Holy Spirit as his life went forward (This would profit him and bring glory to God). We know of his rescue by God, not any of his moral behavior following though. Maybe God gave us wisdom concerning His rescue and pointed us to an important reality!
Blessings,
Chris
Cb,
We should go get coffee some time. I think actually meeting me might clear up some of your assumptions.
Peace
Chris,
If you read back through my arguments, remember I am speaking of always being at one’s best. The “best” we can offer to Jesus will never be intentionally impaired even by “just a little bit” of moderation or compromise with, about or on anything.
Now, Chris, let me quickly say I will always struggle with giving my best to Jesus in many areas of life. And maybe I struggle more than others with some things, because I am, by nature a stubborn and willful man. But I have determined that I am going to die trying to give my best to Jesus. And I full well know that even a little bit of beverage alcohol will not help me to give my best.
I also have learned that “jack-slapping” perverts, woman and child abusers,incestuous devils, baby-rapers and man-burners upside the head with a brick even in “moderate” amounts ain’t exactly giving Jesus my “best” either but I still struggle with the temptation.
cb
Rastis,
If you are ever in Birmingham, give me a call. I am easily found. Not only will I buy you a cup of coffee, but I will buy you a full dinner of good B-B-Q and we will talk till the waiter pulls the chairs out from under us and throws us out the door.
cb
Rastis,
It doesn’t seem you understand what I’m getting at. But, maybe I’m not understanding you either.
You said: “Lot was drunk when it happened (a good case for moderation!)”
I read your statement to mean that if Lot had practiced moderation, he might have avoided the sin of incest with his daughters. If moderation is a good way to avoid incest, wouldn’t abstinence be even better? Given two good options for avoiding incest, why didn’t you recommend the fail-safe one?
That’s basically what I was getting at in my comment.
In the part of the world where I serve, there are virtually no families left untouched by the ugly hand of alcohol abuse, even while a majority of people consider themselves to be Orthodox Christians. Their church and their culture accepts the idea of moderate use of alcohol. It’s not an exaggeration to say that the acceptance of drinking in moderation really has been the prelude to tragic consequences in the majority of lives here. Maybe that’s why I get a little riled up over a little parenthetical like “a good case for moderation.”
I wish you the best, brother, and may God be at work with you in the Middle East.
KF
Brother cb,
Like I have said….I love your consistency. I’m learning a lot from you my friend.
I think I may start a global warming company and hire you as my first and highest employee. I’m sure that Internet Al won’t mind a bit having us as a little competition. But, before then…I may have to wait a few months, probably until about March to get us incorporated ….until ole Colt’s guns have finished smokin’ in early January and the dense smoke has cleared. I’m just not so sure what animal will be found wanting once the smoke clears….
Blessings my brother,
Chris
Chris,
Missionary Tebow gives me true reason to have concern, but if we get by him; Ole Colt will be no match for the Mount Cody and the Crimson Tide. He just don’t have enough shots in his revolver to be a true “Town Tamer” or “Peacemaker” among the ruffians of the SABANATION.
Tomorrow will tell the tale. Until then,
ROLL TIDE
Chris,
I don’t think Gen 2 precludes incest so long as it would occur within the confines of marriage. Levitical law is clear that incest, including between a father and daughter, is wrong. So the real question is do we or do we not import levitical teaching back into Genesis? Do we treat incest as a universal–like murder–or as something that is instituted with the institution of the law–like the civil and ceremonial elements of the law?
Since this topic has struck a very emotive chord with many on here, I need to clarify some things. With Lot we are not talking about pedophilia. His daughters were of age to be married and were betrothed back in Sodom. They were old enough to bear children. They were old enough to make the conscious choice to seduce their father. It is still incest, just not pedophilia.
If we import the laws on incest back into genesis, then we are not only condemning Lot, but most of his contemporaries. This becomes a problem with God is the one who brings together an incestuous relationship (eg. Abraham and Sarah) or when the relationship is out of necessity (1st and 2nd generation marriages of Adam’s children).
I don’t think importing the Spirit back here as you have is the right solution. I affirm that the Spirit is an eternal member of the godhead and active at all points in history. Gal 4 indicates a certain chronology of how the Spirit has worked in human history. There seems to be a qualitative change after Pentecost. To hold prepentecost people to that standard is anachronistic not to mention cruel.
For those hearing me say that lot should have been drinking, that we should be drinking, or that the incest should have occurred have misread the main point of the post. I work in a highly urban context (more people live in my city than live in most states taken individually.) I deal a lot with Christians who want to all huddle up in their nice clean churches in the suburbs and never make an impact on the city. We have some truly dark areas in my city; places where the police will not go after dark. We need people with Lot-like faith to go and preach a Paul-like message to those who need to hear it the most. The Spirit is able to keep us clean and God is able to rescue us. And that was my main point.
I would like to affirm Rastis’s statement concerning his main point, and ask that we try to keep our comments related to that main point.
Stick to the topic? What an unusual and innovative concept.
Good grief …
OK, David, that id fair. Back to the main point.
Who do you think will win the National Championship?
For Mr. Tebow to go out with anything less would be too anti-climactic.
Who knows? Maybe there’ll be another chance, another day, for you Sabanites. But not this year.
David,
I am glad you recognize the primary topic of discussion in every Board, Agency, and Institution; not to mention every affiliated local church in the SBC.
Now, just out of curiosity; What exactly do you affirm relating to Rastis’ comment concerning his main point?
Brother Rastis,
I agree with the main point….and I think I got it.
You may have misread my account of what makes for incest. Genesis 2 establishes the marraige relationship, one man and one woman. That has never, nor will ever change. A sexual relationship out of that God ordained relationship is sin.
Abraham or any other that did not fit that God ordained model sinned against God. That’s all I am trying to say. If there is another God ordained model, I guess someone will point that out to me.
Blessings,
Chris
CB,
Main point:
“I work in a highly urban context (more people live in my city than live in most states taken individually.) I deal a lot with Christians who want to all huddle up in their nice clean churches in the suburbs and never make an impact on the city. We have some truly dark areas in my city; places where the police will not go after dark. We need people with Lot-like faith to go and preach a Paul-like message to those who need to hear it the most. The Spirit is able to keep us clean and God is able to rescue us. And that was my main point.”
I affirm Rastis in everything he says here.
Thank you David.
Let me say that the testimony of Rastis is very similar to mine. I am in Birmingham. I am in one of the most violent areas of Birmingham. I deal with what Rastis is talking about every day.
And due to the fact that I can easily relate to Rastis, I can affirm him right up until here:
“We need people with Lot-like faith….”
David, Rastis could have used many other Bible characters to make his point other than Lot. David, to say the things Rastis said about Lot in a city with the problems mine has is to open Pandora’s Box for severe misunderstanding and breakdown of communication. and obstruction to the goal of presenting the gospel story.
Main Point-very good and certainly true.
Illustration using biblical character study-poor choice and certainly risky.
cb
CB,
See my comment #5.
And, GO GATORS!!!
I think we all have to take a step back and realize that, though ultimately good will triumph, there are times in this world in which wickedness, evil and perversity prevail.
In a completely just world, the mercenary Saban and his cronies would go down to an ignominious defeat. But in this fallen world, sometimes, injustice prevails for a time.
At least we can ALL unite in cheering for Timmy and the Gators.
Rastis, you had a great post that created a lot of thought. But, every Saturday during football season this blog becomes football-focused whatever the topic of the day is.
David,
I have been out most of this morning putting up a mailbox for a widow woman because some thugs destroyed hers last night. (Just another night in Birmingham. A policeman was shot and killed here last night also. He was only 33 years old. He leaves a wife and three young children. A sad situation indeed. And, another example of why the cities need a consistent witness of the gospel as was the point of Rastis’ post.)
David, I say the above to let you know I would have loved to have been able to catch you earlier. David, your inconsistency is evident between comment #5 and comment #58.
In #5 you say to Rastis:
“I agree with the basic thesis behind what you say here, but am not so sure that Lot is the best example.”
Then in #58 you say to me:
“I affirm Rastis in everything he says here.”
My dear GATORNATION fan; that is total inconsistency in your position. Such a terrible flaw, so very terrible. Yes, terrible indeed. Should he have used Lot as an illustration or not?
But, your inconsistency does bring up a serious point here that I would like to examine more fully if I may:
Now, David, we Sabanites are never inconsistent as are GATORNATION fans in all things.
Therefore, because we of the SABANATION are consistently consistent and consistently never fail to be consistent in anything. And since we have consistently won every game this year against far greater adversaries than have the GATORNATION. And since the great flaw of the GATORNATION and Gatorites is to be inconsistent. Let it be decreed this day, December 5, 2009, among all who live among the BIG LEAGUE FOOTBALL CONFERENCE, THE SEC, (of course this immediately leave Dave Miller out in the cold) that the winner will be the consistently consistent SABANATION over the consistently inconsistent GATORNATION.
ROLL TIDE
Dave,
I was thinking of you earlier while I was “digging a hole” to put up a new mailbox post for a widow woman about how you “dug a hole” for yourself this year in cheering for the BUZZARDEYENATION, betraying the fact that you have never been around BIG LEAGUE football.
Dave, it is not too late for you to convert and cheer for the SABANATION to win over the GATORNATION and show a degree of intelligence when it comes to football.
Maybe if you cheer properly, we will take pity on you down here and maybe help you find a church in the SABANATION so you can get out of all that snow, get some decent B-B-Q, and most importantly, become part of real football and get out of the Jr. High Football Conference you are in now.
Dave, you need to be aware that this offer will only last till kickoff time at the Georgia Dome today. So just post ROLL TIDE, ROLL in this comment thread and I will know you desire to make a new start in life.
Whoever said we are not merciful down here in the SABANATION?
ROLL TIDE
CB,
The moment of truth is here.
May the best team (i.e. the Gators) win.
Bottom line, I think, is what John MacArthur has said about the pastorate:
If you’re a pastor, you have one job…you have one job. It’s this, Shepherd the flock of God among you….that’s your job. You are not a cultural evangelist, you are not a society penetrator, you’re not an entrepreneur, you’re not a revolutionary, you are a feeder of the flock of God.
Jesus said:
“I will build My church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.”
“All whom the Father chose will be called.”
“All who are called will come.”
“All who come will be received by Christ.”
“All whom Christ receives, He will keep. All whom He keeps, He will raise at the last day.”
Our job is to feed His sheep. And the day you move your eyes beyond the people sitting in your church who belong to Christ, that’s the day you just lost your purpose.
Turn to 1 Peter and what I want to do, 1 Peter 5, is just look at some Scripture with you. Can we do that? Have a little Bible study, kind of like we’re hanging around in the den somewhere? If you’re looking for an outline, you won’t find one. This is 1 Peter, and I think by the time Peter wrote his epistles, he sort of sorted it all out. He had a little bit of difficulty finding his way. But he had an experience with Jesus in John chapter 21 verses 15 to 17 in which Jesus restored him from his tragedy, right?
By the way, a planned strategy was Peter’s denial. God planned to fit it into His purposes. How do we know that? Because of Luke chapter 22, Jesus said to Peter, “Satan desires to have you that he may sift you.”
Now if I had been Peter, I would have said…”Well you told him no, right?” And like Job, the Lord said, “I told him yes.” Because when you’re converted, you’re going to be able to strengthen the brothers. And it is that same Peter who was confronted by Jesus after his horrible failure in John 21 in Galilee and Jesus says to him, “Do you love Me? Do you love Me? Do you love Me? If you do, feed My sheep. Feed My sheep. Feed My sheep.” How complicated is that?
Listen to 1 Peter 5:1, “Therefore, I exhort the elders among you,” that would be us, right? “As your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed.” He’s got some credentials, right? He saw the suffering of Christ and he also saw the transfiguration, previews of the Second Coming, as a real Apostle and companion of Christ. “I exhort you with those kinds of credentials and that kind of direct line form Christ Himself, verse 2, feed the flock of God among you.”
The focus of our ministry is not on the people outside the church. The focus of our ministry is the people inside the church. It’s not the unbelievers that come to church, it’s the believers who are the church. Shepherd or feed the flock of God among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but voluntarily according to the will of God, or according, literally, to God. This is God’s plan. If you’re a pastor, you are a shepherd of the flock of God. It’s that basic. This is our mandate. We’re not called to the culture. We’re not called to the unconverted. We are called to the redeemed. We are called to the church, the elect, the justified and we’re called to be two things, their sanctifier and their protector and they go together.
I just think he has said what the pastors responsibility is. We need to activate the other gifts and make them work in the church.
The real national championship is being played right now…the SEC championship game. It’s this way every year.
Bruce, your comment in 63 is very good. Sheep that are fed and feel at peace and content will reproduce. If we will feed our sheep, then they will reproduce. The Church will grow. Of course, we should still be evangelistic and have the world on our hearts. But, you are correct, a healthy Church will grow.
David
David (007),
When it fits it fits. Sometimes the sheep have to go out and function according to their gifts. I do not know what Lot was gifted with but we who are in this generation must realize that the pastor must equip us with the right equipment to go out and do the work. Our work may be in line with Lot, Noah, David, Daniel, Solomon or Jonah and we must simply do what God has graced us to do. Fail or not we keep doing it til we are finished. Amen.
Tim Tebow IS the best college football player in the history of the game.
CB,
Congratulations. Ya’ll are really good. This year is your turn. Represent us well in the National Championship game.
Brother Rastis,
I appreciate this article and have been thinking about it quite a bit. You have caused me to reflect on my own life and commitment by bringing several points out in the story of Lot. Though my thoughts are a bit late, I would like to offer the following:
1. Lot demonstrated great faith and righteousness in attempting to reaching this perverse city even while he was greatly distressed over this people’s perversion. We should have the same desire to see cities redeemed. And we should demonstrate the same faith by inserting ourselves into the cities as ambassadors of God’s Kingdom.
2. Lot, like Abraham, made some poor choices in the course of his life and ministry. None of us are immune and we should desire to continually bear this in mind.
3. It seems Lot got into the most trouble when he isolated himself from the darkness of the city. It was in seclusion that he became drunk and susceptible to his daughters molesting him. This should remind us that even when we are furthest away from those “bad places,” we are no further away from temptation or darkness.
Thank you for causing me to meditate on Lot’s story in this way.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
If the Yankees hadn’t won the world series, this would be one of the worst sports years in history.
Congrats, CB. However, I am going to end up doing something I have not done very often. I will be cheering for the Longhorns.
In spite of the deterioration of Lot’s faith and his continuing association with the Sodomites, he earns Peter’s judgment as “just” and “righteous.” But, as the story shows, being righteous does not necessarily mean being right. His righteousness related to his heart intents. They were good. He was vexed, distressed, by the wickedness which surrounded him. But his decisions were not right. Thus he failed of the high commendation of faith which Paul gave his uncle Abraham.
The judgment of Lot in the Lord’s eyes is not given in the Bible. We do well, though, to profit from his mistakes and not to repeat them. As for his judgment or ours, how comforting are the Apostle’s words in 2 Cor. 8:12, “For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.”
CB,
I bet you’re smiling big tonite. Bama just won the national title.
congtrats.
David
Vol,
I am happy that we won. And you are right, this game was the National Championship. The next one is just a recruiting run.
But, in all seriousness, there were some mixed emotions for Karen and I as we watched the game. We remember praying for Bob and Pam Tebow through a difficult pregnancy as did many other brothers and sisters. Pam Tebow’s faith and commitment was truly inspirational. She remained faithful (as did Bob) to her belief that all life is sacred and that God is sovereign in all things. She refused to abort her baby in spite of the pleading of her doctors. You know the rest of the story.
Tim Tebow did lose tonight. Yet, in the end it is just a ball game. But his life is a testimony of faith. It is a testimony of a family of faith. It is a testimony of a family submitted to Christ. It is a testimony that has had an effect on a lot of people.
My personal prayer is that the Kingdom of God be advanced by Tim Tebow’s life. I pray that his father has an even greater opportunity to preach the gospel. I pray his sisters carry on the example of a godly woman as has his mother. I pray that his brothers carry on the example of a godly man as has his father.
And lastly, I pray that Tim Tebow finishes well for Christ.
And Vol, I pray the same for you and all those guys at IMPACT and every one of us Baptist bloggers who venture into their comment threads. May we all seek to finish well for Jesus, for in the end, that is all that counts.
My middle eastern brother,
I love point number 3!
Brother CB,
You said :
(emphasis mine)
Two questions regarding the above quote:
1. I am not quite sure how it is that Lot became righteous except through faith. Do you see a way in Holy Scripture in which one might be reckoned righteousness in the absence of faith?
2. We would both agree that Lot’s drunkenness in the cave was sin. But I am curious as to whether or not you see his living in Sodom, in and of itself, as sinful?
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
FTME,
No, I do not think living in Sodom was in and of itself sinful.
If that were the case I am sinful for living in my city. My church would be sinful for choosing to stay in the city.
Paul would certainly have been sinful for starting a church in Corinth.
So no, I do not think it sinful to go to any city with the gospel. That is, as long as that remains your priority.
Now, as to Lot’s faith:
If it was faith which prompted Abraham to leave Haran, was it any less faith on the part of Lot? Some might say that he was younger, and therefore he had little choice. But his sister, Milcah, was left behind. He did have a choice. He chose to go with Abraham. Assuredly, this was an act of faith on Lot’s part! Yet, he was not singled out for this act of faith as was Abraham. Why? Because his faith did not continue to grow to maturity.
What do I mean by “his faith did not grow to maturity? He got sidetracked, in my opinion.
Arriving in the land of Canaan, both Abraham and Lot prospered so much that “the land was not able to bear them, that they might dwell together: for their substance was great.” (Gen. 13:6) Strife developed between their herdsmen. In an amicable discussion, the two decided to part company. Lot chose the then fertile area around the base of the Dead Sea. Although now a barren area, it was apparently agriculturally productive before God’s judgement that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.
I do not believe the decision to relocate in the area of Sodom was not in itself an act unpleasing to God. Given first choice, it was only logical to select the area with the best prospects for prosperity. However, it did place Lot in a position of temptation. Prosperity is always tempting, and one of the greatest antagonists of faith. Where prosperity exists, man feels less and less need for God.
I believe Lot let his prosperity lead him to make some choices that lead him away from his primary priority.
It is my opinion that Lot made some serious compromises of his faith. It seems he was a judge within the city (Gen. 19:1). In order to win a “seat at the gate” he had to have had some esteem and prominence among the inhabitants of the city. The rise to prominence often results from compromise. (Not always, but often) And there are some evidences in the story that Lot had made some compromises before the Angels came to the city. Obviously he made some afterward.
I am not saying he had righteousness in the absence of faith. I am saying a righteous man can do things that are not right. Lot did. Seemingly far more so than did his uncle.
cb
CB,
What compromises did he make prior to the angels arrival?
That second to last paragraph is speculative unless there is something textually which suggests that. IMO, the text suggest the opposite, that he was a judge.
Rastis,
Right. He was a judge. That is what I meant by him having a “seat at the gate.”
That is why I said:
“In order to win a “seat at the gate” he had to have had some esteem and prominence among the inhabitants of the city. The rise to prominence often results from compromise. (Not always, but often) And there are some evidences in the story that Lot had made some compromises before the Angels came to the city. Obviously he made some afterward.”
Other things the Text “suggest” that show prior compromise, in my opinion, is the end result of his wife and the character of the men his daughters were going to marry among others such as; The daughter said “come let us make our father drink wine….” Does it not stand to reason that the daughters had witnessed their father drink wine before and maybe get drunk before if they thought they could persuade him to do so in such a stressful circumstance as Lot had now found himself?
Rastis, My point is (as I hope you read above) your post would have made your point much better if you had used some other person that Lot and his story.
Hey, you could have used Uriah the Hittite and have made your point much better. Of course, that is my opinion.
If you read some of my comment above you will see will see my position. See comments #40 and 57. Also see David Roger’s #5.
cb
Rastis,
Let me say this. Paul was speaking to a church in a city when he said to the Church of God at Corinth to not do things that would offend weaker brothers.
Rastis, those of us who minister in cities must follow that admonition.
We must refrain from the things of which have so enslaved the very people of who we have been assigned by God to reach with the gospel and those we have already reached with the gospel.
Rastis, our church reaches a lot of youth and children on Wednesday and Sunday nights. Our Youth Ministry Team has told me that all but two of the youth they minister to on those nights are from broken and disfunctional homes. A few do not even live in the same home from week-to-week. The Children’s Ministry Team tells me horror stories about the situations of some of the children they work with on those same nights. Four years ago, my wife and I took four of those children who had no place to go into our home. They are our children now.
For that reason Rastis, I could never make this statement you made:
“While many blame Lot for the incest, I do not believe it is as bad as it sounds. First, Lot was drunk when it happened (a good case for moderation!). Second, the law had not been given yet (If you are going to nail him here, then you have to figure out where Cain found his wife…). Finally, and most importantly, Lot’s daughters were acting in faith.”
Rastis, many of the children we minister to have had incestuous relations with family members. Alcohol and drugs have destroyed the families of most of them.
I could never say ” Lot’s incest is not as bad as it sounds.” I could never talk to kids about moderation. There is no such thing as moderation to them.
And brother, for sure Lot’s daughters were not acting in faith. They were committing the same sin as their Aunt Sarah, only worse. They were not acting by faith in God. Their faith was in their young bodies, alcohol, and the uninhibited nature of their father when he was drunk.
Rastis, I am not looking at this through “Puritan eyes.” I am just looking at it through common sense and experience with a people of a city.
As I said to David in a comment above about your post, I say to you:
“Main Point-very good and certainly true.
Illustration using biblical character study-poor choice and certainly risky.”
cb
“Does it not stand to reason that the daughters had witnessed their father drink wine before and maybe get drunk before if they thought they could persuade him to do so in such a stressful circumstance as Lot had now found himself?” Yes, perhaps. But there are other equally conceivable options…
“Rastis, My point is (as I hope you read above) your post would have made your point much better if you had used some other person that Lot and his story.”
Peter feels confident to use Lot as an example. Sodom and Gomorrah is a watershed event for biblical writers. I think Sodom resonates with us because we see our own culture and city there. I remember my first trip to NYC. It was in my “former” days. I remember thinking in my head “God, just wait till I get outside the city to burn it down.” I was self-righteous and arrogant, not to mention shocked. It wasnt that my home town didnt have the same sin, they just didnt put it on every corner and proudly display it in all the windows. By my second trip God had done a lot of work in my life. I stood on the top of the empire state building looking out at the hundreds of high-rises and wept. There were millions of people who were under the judgment of God. There were millions of people in this “christian” country who went about their daily life without taking the claims of Christ seriously. There we people I met on the street who not only didnt know what was in the Bible, but didnt even know what “that black book” was. I have never gotten over this moment.
I agree that there are many other examples. Given time, I will do my best to flesh them out through “urban” eyes. The majority of Southern Baptist churches are small country churches. There is nothing wrong with this, but we tend to not do well in the city. When I was in training in Richmond I was one of eight out of about 200 people who grew up in a large city. This shapes where our missionaries want to go when they hit the field. People in the bush need the Gospel too, but as cities become the predominant local for the majority of the people in the world, we have to get better at reaching and understanding the city. Part of this includes reading our Bibles with different eyes. Growing up, I always had the impression that the good guys get out of the city. Not only was this the way many biblical stories were taught (Lot for instance), but this is the way our literature is as well (Vanity Fair…). When our country mouse lenses are taken away and we look through the city mouse eyes, we see that God has a big heart for the city.
“Hey, you could have used Uriah the Hittite and have made your point much better. Of course, that is my opinion.”
Uriah? You are gonna have to spin that one for me.
I hit send before I finished…
“Does it not stand to reason that the daughters had witnessed their father drink wine before and maybe get drunk before if they thought they could persuade him to do so in such a stressful circumstance as Lot had now found himself?” Yes, perhaps. But there are other equally conceivable options…
It could be that Lot and his family were used to him indulging. Two other options I can conceive of are 1) the girls were just used to drunkenness living in a city like Sodom. Their understanding of drunkenness and how it makes one vulnerable could just be a byproduct of their city. I state option two at the grave danger of opening up the discussion we just closed (which I am not trying to do.)….. but maybe Lot was a strict abstainer.
I said in the main post that how we view the story about lot comes as much from our own experiences as it does from the text. This is why it is so important, IMO, to recast the story of Lot through different eyes. When I was in my separation and holiness days I viewed this story very differently than I do now that I am not as strict as I used to be and now that I am doing urban missions.
We typically view Lot as compromised because we have a negative view on those who go to the city–if we view Lot as a participant rather than a person of justices, it only makes this stereotype worse.
This is why we look at the story and see compromise. But perhaps he was a strict teetotaler. The only people I hear talking more about alcohol than drunks are abstainers… They are borderline obsessed with the topic. In the “villageesque” church I grew up in, I saw families who were very “holy” (no pants, rock music, nonKJV bible, etc) and the children became the worst hellions ever once they left home. It isn’t just that the girls would change their views on premarital sex, drinking, modesty. They would dive into those things without thinking. Rather than saying “I don’t agree with my parents; I am going to wear pants” they would just start wearing lingerie (I promise I am not exaggerating). They wouldn’t decide they they disagreed with their parents on Dating vs. Courtship, they would start sleeping with every man they possibly could. They wouldn’t decide that they disagreed with abstaining from alcohol and that moderation was they way, they would open the bottle and crawl in. The sad fact was that everything that most of the parents feared in the village came true for their kids. It is easier to count the kids who came out of that and still love Jesus; the majority went of the deep end.
It is just as possible that this was the case for lot and his daughters as it was that they were an imbibing family. The meltdown of his family could equally be attributed to legalism as it could to libertine-ism.
So why do we view Lot through the eyes of compromise? It is just as rational to view him through the eyes of strict legalism. I prefer the eyes of redemption. Not to say that everything he did was right, but there is much we can learn from what he did do right.
CB
“Let me say this. Paul was speaking to a church in a city when he said to the Church of God at Corinth to not do things that would offend weaker brothers.”
I agree. I also agree with his admonition to do all things in moderation and, for the sake of a weak conscience, to not ask questions when at the table. This is a complex issue, and I think one size fits all kind of answers oversimplify the complexity of both the situation and the biblical data.
“We must refrain from the things of which have so enslaved the very people of who we have been assigned by God to reach with the gospel and those we have already reached with the gospel.”
Lets foray outside of the alcohol issue for a bit. What about sex? Many people have wrecked lives as a result of sex. Furthermore, many people are addicted to sex. FURTHERMORE, almost ever nonbeliever I know (and sadly many believers–though they hide it.) is engaging or has engaged in illicit sex. Do we abstain from sex because we are trying to reach these people? This was one of the questions the Corinthian church asked Paul (1 Cor 7:1). He answers with a resounding “no.” The answer for the lust and licentiousness problem the church faced in Corinth was not avoidance but godly participation. They were to continue having sex, but they were to do it as God prescribed. Avoidance would only cause them to fall prey to the same temptations.
What we need to do is model the spirit filled enjoyment of life. Indulgence and abstinence in regards to any issue or substance share the same root flaw: they are focused on substance and not on Christ. Self control (which cannot be manufactured through mere avoidance) is the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives moderating what we do so that we do not wake up and find ourselves as gluttons, sex addicts, drunkards, or angry persons. Merely avoiding all of these things in their entirety is not a quality of the Spirit filled life as it is still focused on the elemental things of this world (Col 2:16-23).
As it relates to Lot’s incest “not being as bad as it sounds”:
You rightly point out the great number of people in our society whose lives are ruined through childhood molestation and sexual assault. I agree with your conclusion. Harming a child is the epitome of evil incarnate. In my home state we have a phrase “he needed killin” which is almost a formal legal plea (Just kidding, but only a little!). And this is why I say what lot did is not as bad as it sounds. When we hear incest, we think of the creepy uncle molesting a child. Lot’s incest was entirely different. The daughters were the perpetrators (in modern society, what they did would qualify as date rape!). They were grown women, not children. They were old enough to be married and bear children. So we are not dealing with incest as we experience it in our culture today, which is what we hear in our heads when we hear the word.
We are forgetting that only a few generations ago, it was not uncommon for a 35-40 year old man to marry a 14-16 year old girl (this was common in Victorian culture). Through the rise of modern medicine and health, we now live longer healthier lives. As a result, we are not getting married as young as we used to. I was married when I was 21 and everyone was shocked at “how young” i was getting married. My parents were married out of highschool, so it seems to me that I slowed it down. But as our age marriage has increased so has our understanding of when it is acceptable to marry a girl. Victorian culture, if it were practiced today, would land some people in jail. What changed?
“And brother, for sure Lot’s daughters were not acting in faith. They were committing the same sin as their Aunt Sarah, only worse. They were not acting by faith in God. Their faith was in their young bodies, alcohol, and the uninhibited nature of their father when he was drunk.”
It does seem like an audacious statement to say that two incestuous girls were acting in faith. Nevertheless, there is something beyond a mere sexual act going on here. For the record, I do think what they did was wrong but I want to understand all of the nuances of what was going on which leads me to have a more lenient opinion of what they did. This wasn’t just mere casual sex.
They had seen one of the greatest demonstrations of God’s power and just rage. You could say it was of biblical proportions…. (couldn’t resist). This event left them in total isolation and fear. They saw everything they knew destroyed. There was no travel channel or NGS to show them that there was a world out there. Fearing that they were the last people on the planet they did what what most of our desert island movies depict… they try to keep the race going. Without a biblical law that that point prohibiting it, and with their mother now dead, they saw this as the last option, but a necessary one.
I think it goes even deeper than this. I think women of that era were obsessed with finding the deliverer (gen 3:15). This explains the stigma surrounding barrenness. This also explains all of the weird sexuality in Genesis. What are we to do with Tamar? That story bothered me when I was younger because it seemed so out of place in the Bible (I had a puritan outlook at the time: biblical stories ought to conform to biblical morality–or at least my understanding of it). Once I realized the flow of the Old Testament as presenting a problem–the fall–proposing a solution–the coming deliverer–and then tracking the advent of that deliverer throughout the stories, customs, laws, rulers, and kingdoms did that story make sense. Then to find her in the genealogy confirmed that belief. She acted in faith and was rewarded, albeit, not in the time frame in which she would have preferred.
I think this is what Lot’s daughters were after. This is what Sarah was after as well, though they chose the wrong means to go about it. Even though Ishmael was not the son of promise, God used his people and made of him a great nation. He also used those people to further his kingdom. Yes, the Ishmaelites, Moabites, and Ammonites all worked against God’s purposes from time to time (but lets be fair, so did his own people who should have known better), they have all been used for his purposes.
After all, we would not have Ruth (obed-Jesse-David) had it not been for Lot’s daughters.
Brother CB,
Brother Rastis asked the question I would have asked about Lot’s compromises prior to the coming of the angels. I think he has raised similar concerns to those I have with your answer to that question (comment #77 above). But I would like to add one thing. Prior to that, I would like to affirm our common ground in all of this. First is that both of us (I think) recognize Lot was neither perfect nor Satan incarnate. Second is that there are certainly aspects of his life that are worthy of emulation and others which we should avoid at all costs. Further, we would both agree that attempting to be an influence for God and His Kingdom in a morally depraved city, though suffering due to the wretchedness of the sin and depravity in the city is something that is to be emulated. On those things I think we all agree.
However, the lens through which you are reading the story of Lot in Holy Scripture and the lens through which I am reading it bring us to very different conclusions regarding what Lot’s motive(s) was in the city. Your view seems to consider Lot as one who gave in to the sin around him and did not hold firm to his faith while in the city. My view (as articulated in comment #68 above) is that Lot’s intent was to serve as an ambassador of God and His Kingdom and an agent of change within the city.
I would like for you to consider the Apostle Peter’s description of Lot as:
My opinion is that this description leaves no room for debate as to Lot’s heart while in Sodom. But I am open to your perspective on Peter’s description.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
FTME,
I do not argue that Lot was not righteous and his heart’s intent was of the same virtue.
My argument is that a righteous heart does not insure all of one’s actions to be right. I content that Lot, although righteous, as Peter, by inspiration, presents, still did, in fact, make several wrong decisions both before and certainly after the visit of the Angels.
I also contend that although Rastis is correct that we must not flee the cities and leave them without a witness; there are many far better biblical characters to use to illustrate the point.
But, I cannot concede that Lot’s daughters acted in faith acceptable to believers in any way. Their efforts were driven by far less than godly motivations.
They were not trusting God in any way. They were seeking to fulfill their purposes by their own means, very ungodly means.
cb
Brother CB,
You said:
Thanks for the clarification. It appears we agree.
Peace to you brother,
From the Middle East
Brother Rastis,
I am sorry for the lateness to the dance, it seems that Brother CB has already punched your dance card. However, there is something that I must ask and seeing that alcohol has already been discussed I want to return to the title of the post.
According to the scripture Lot was determined to be “righteous”, but in the context of the scripture would one not agree that “righteous” refers more to his character than his faith? While I am not doubting that Lot was “righteous” (because of his faith just as Abraham–Genesis 15:8)what I see in the context of the scripture used to support your verdict that you wish to be Lot is the mere fact that Lot was among false teachers. Yes, culture does have false teachers, but the difference in Lot and Abraham was that Lot chose his place to live based on Genesis 13:10 (KJV) And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where…like the land of Egypt.” Here is my concern with your post. You advocate being like Lot instead of being like Abraham. Abraham was certainly known for his faith. If I understand Scripture and exegesis correctly, where scripture advocates something we advocate it. When Scripture is silent we need to be silent. I believe you would be hard pressed to bring out Scripture that uses Lot for an example of righteous living. The Scripture you pointed out presents only his right teaching.
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
Thanks for the comment.
I must have been unclear. I wasn’t advocating being like Lot vs being like Abraham. I am trying to understand Peter’s declaration that Lot was righteous in his time in Sodom. I believe the account of Genesis bears out this same truth when viewed in the context of the prior chapter. There are many parallels between the two (including in the area of sin). So, I wasnt arguing that it was an either or choice. Rather, I believe there are many ways in which they are alike.
You call Lot a false teacher. This is a bit speculative since we dont have any of his teaching recorded in scripture… Was there something you had in mind there? In Peter it is clear that there is a distinction between righteous Lot, whom God saved, and the false teachers who are set apart for destruction. Maybe I am misreading what you said, but you say on the one hand that he is a false teacher and then you close in point out that the scripture I quoted demonstrates his right teaching. Am I missing something here?
Can he really have righteous character without faith? I believe that faith in early biblical literature is believing the promise of God.
Scripture does use lot. The first instance is in Genesis. Lot and his city of choice (Zoar) are saved while the other four cities of the valley are destroyed. Peter uses him as an example of God saving the righteous and judging the wicked. Most importantly is the passage in Eze 16 which describes God’s true contention with Sodom. Lot’s hospitality and protection of two innocent strangers, albeit at the potential hazard to his family, is in direct contrast to the Sodom of Eze 16. In fact, when taking that passage into account, most of our churches are closer to practicing the culture of Sodom than was Lot!
Sorry for joining late. I find discussions on college football to fit in with a prohibition on engaging in “foolish controversies” (2 Tim 2:23)
. Actually I’ve just have been so busy lately that I didn’t have time to read the post.
I think we need to be careful with what we say about the interpretation of a specific passage as opposed to the application of a specific passage. I was in a Bible study not too long ago and someone was sharing her take on the book of Philemon. She said that Paul was using Onesiphorus as an analogy to really tell Phliemon that he needed to accept Christ. She was also a new believer and she was put on the spot, so I can understand how could have said something like this (after discussing it further, she revealed what I had suspected all along—she wasn’t expressing herself the way she wanted to. I don’t see anything wrong with looking at the letter to Philemon and drawing some parallels to the necessity of accepting Christ. But that is an application of the passage to a specific situation and not the correct interpretation of the passage. There’s a difference between application and interpretation, and we have a lot more leeway in the first than in the second. Therefore I think we need to be very explicit when explaining a passage if we are using an application or an interpretation. It’s the difference between saying, “This is what the text means,” and “This is what we can pull from the text.” Make sense?
Like Rastis, I like to favor the underdog, so I cringe a little when I hear a pastor explain that there are no (hyperbole, I know) redeeming qualities to Martha, Thomas, or Lot for that matter. Likewise, I believe it is a good idea to tease out just what it was that linked Lot with righteousness and how that played out in his life. I’m all for that. But I think Rastis was stretching the text a little in a few areas without giving due credit to the validity of the approach sourpuss preachers
use who find much to criticize in the life of Lot.
For instance, there is really no definitive reason explained in Scripture as to why Lot lived in Sodom. While I can see drawing a parallel between his willingness to live righteously and raise a family in a wicked city and how Christians ought to live righteously and take the gospel to the city, at best it is just an application of the passage to that specific topic, not the actual thrust of the passage. This application lacks strong scriptural support to claim it as the proper interpretation (merely because there’s nothing that I see demonstrating his evangelistic efforts in the city), I see nothing wrong in preaching this way as long as we present it as an application of the text and not as a “this is the way it really is/was” kind of teaching.
Another equally relevant application would be that Lot’s failure to maintain communion and fellowship with other believers led to his own sin and the destruction of his family. While I recognize that the second application has more scriptural support, it is still an application because we don’t really know how much interaction he had with Abraham or others of like faith (i.e. Melchizedek) while he lived in Sodom.
I have a few more misgivings, which I may discuss in another comment, but I believe I do grasp and agree with (to a point) what Brother Rastis is trying to communicate. I just wish he had stated it differently.
Rastis,
BTW, I’ve just started seminary classes online and am in the 2/2 program through Southern. Maybe we could chat offline sometime about it.
Andrew,
Thanks for the comment. I just sent you an email with some contact info. I would love to chat with you some time about the program and process.
“But I think Rastis was stretching the text a little in a few areas without giving due credit to the validity of the approach sourpuss preachers
use who find much to criticize in the life of Lot.”
As David Rogers pointed out, there are an equal number of contrasts to be drawn between Abraham and Lot as there are comparisons. I only focus on the latter because I don’t believe anyone is confused as to think that Lot is different from Abraham. In fact, most people only see this side and draw it out too far which is what necessitates the recasting of the story.
“there is really no definitive reason explained in Scripture as to why Lot lived in Sodom.”
Agreed. If I were to speculate, I would imagine that his reasons were not all that spectacular (I don’t think he was there purely seeking evil, and neither do i think he was purely kingdom minded). I would imagine that he is much like us. There is a degree of prosperity that most urban centers provide their inhabitants. When you look at Eze 16, this is exactly what Sodom had. While we may not know exactly why he was there, we do know what he was doing while he was there. He was contending in the gate, showing hospitality, etc.
“This application lacks strong scriptural support to claim it as the proper interpretation (merely because there’s nothing that I see demonstrating his evangelistic efforts in the city)”
I have been as careful as I can not to call him a missionary, pastor, prophet, etc. I have favored terms like person of justice and judge. I think it is anachronistic to talk about missionary efforts and gospel proclamation way back here with Abraham and Lot. So when I draw the application forward to modern missionaries and kingdom minded urbanites I am using it more as a metaphor than anything else. So what would lot have been contending about? Without speculating too far, I would imagine that his message would resemble something more like Solomonesque wisdom applied in the lives of the inhabitants of Sodom rather than the sermons of Peter, Paul, and other NT preachers.
That being said, the typical southern baptist view that the good guys get out of town is more rooted in our traditional presuppositions than the texts we mangle. The text concerning Lot is just one of the examples which are used as proof texts. If we drop our presuppositions when we approach this text, then we read the text with a different tone.
Rastis,
I have no problem agreeing with your last comment (#89). I sense a strong desire in you to bring balance to overloaded situations. I admire that.
Rastis,
I would like to ask you what you mean by this statement:
“Most importantly is the passage in Eze 16 which describes God’s true contention with Sodom. Lot’s hospitality and protection of two innocent strangers, albeit at the potential hazard to his family, is in direct contrast to the Sodom of Eze 16. In fact, when taking that passage into account, most of our churches are closer to practicing the culture of Sodom than was Lot!”
It is a fact that Sodom was arrogant, blessed food abundantly and and lived in ease, but did not care for the poor and needy. That is all true.
But, Rastis, do you believe the sin of Sodom was that the people of Sodom did not show proper hospitality to the strangers among them.? Do you believe that to be the sin for which Sodom was destroyed by God?
FWIW,
We have already been down this path before here at sbcIMPACT! and CB has already weighed in:
http://www.sbcimpact.net/2007/11/01/why-did-god-destroy-sodom/
CB,
To explain my statement:
I think that when you look at Ezekiel’s casting of Sodom that he looks at more basic elements. Pride and ignoring the poor and needy were common problems which are addressed throughout prophetic literature. I think when we read Lot’s story through traditional eyes, we see his association with an evil city (a city that is the becomes the archetype of wickedness and God’s willingness to destroy evil) and we get hung up in all of the sexual stuff. The crowd is a bunch of sexual deviants; Lot appears as a sexual deviant, and we look at the Peter passage with confusion since we are putting Lot in with the Sodomites. When we look at the other issues, we can see a greater contrast between Lot and his contemporaries. They were living out the “american dream” at is materialistic licentious worst. In contrast, Lot compelled them to accept his hospitality before he ever knew that they were sent by God. He was blessed as a result of this–They physically removed him, thus saving his life.
Regarding my comments about the church’s relation to Sodom: I think we are woefully close to looking just like the culture described in Eze 16. Corporately and individually we are chasing this same dream. We prioritize the American dream in front of the Great Commissions.
Relating to your specific question:
I just believe the Bible
It is hard to pass up such a direct statement in scripture: “Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom:”
He goes on to say: “she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me.”
God is consistent, in that he judged his own people for these same things. These themes are repeated ubiquitously throughout the prophets. It seems like the more flamboyant (no pun intended) sins are a result of root causes of “simple” sins such as pride and rejecting the truth (Rom 1). Something like adultery is a hideous sin. Nevertheless, it is a sin which is always the very last thing in a long string of “minor” sins. I believe that homosexuality was part of their judgment. This, I believe, is the reference in 16:50 to an “abomination.” Though proverbs makes it clear that pride is also an abomination, so I could be wrong to include that one in the list. If i am right about the abomination being homosexuality, it is important to note that it received the least attention in eze 16. It does seem to be the final straw in the Gen account. I think God might have spared the city (it only takes one, God seemed to be in the mood to bargain, and Lot’s singular presence did save one of the condemned cities.). The text is clear that “all” the people of Sodom came against the house and ordered lot to throw the two visitors out.
Rastis,
Show me any comment I have made thus far that would group “me” with any “we” you speak of in your statement here:
“I think when we read Lot’s story through traditional eyes, we see his association with an evil city (a city that is the becomes the archetype of wickedness and God’s willingness to destroy evil) and we get hung up in all of the sexual stuff. The crowd is a bunch of sexual deviants; Lot appears as a sexual deviant, and we look at the Peter passage with confusion since we are putting Lot in with the Sodomites….”
BTW, if you read the comment thread David references, you will see some of us were voicing the substance of the GCR before it was made “legitimate.”
Rastis, a person does not have to be “hung up with the sexual stuff” to recognize that the folks in Sodom had gone far beyond homosexuality in their perverse lifestyles. These folks were sadistically AC/DC to the max. hey had become “twisted” to the dimensions of being biblically defined as of a “reprobate mind” (KJV).
Today we would call them “sociopathic sexual deviants” in many circles.
cb
David,
When a bear hunter is “settin” traps; it is not nice of you Greenpeace guys comin’ along and springin’ ‘em.
BTW Rastis,
There are things going on in American cities and among Redneck Ridge-Runners of the Backwoods that would make a self-respecting Sodomite blush and made a guy like Ole Lot move into a cave much sooner than he did.
It is my opinion that God is far more long-suffering since Jesus rose from the grave for for His own purposes.
(Please do not take that statement to get the idea that I believe God has changed or that I adhere to Open Theism.)
I am just saying that I believe God’s purposes are far beyond our understanding and there are many things I cannot comprehend in my present state.
But I do believe that we as believers must dig in, lock and load and fight this present evil with the only weapon we have: The Gospel.
CB
re: 94
“Show me any comment I have made thus far that would group “me” with any “we” you speak of in your statement here:”
It was the collective we, hence the word “we”. I wasn’t talking about you personally, but if the shoe fits… or the folksy version: the dog that barks is the one that got hit. In retrospect, a lot of your posts have focused on two things: alcohol and illicit sex.
In spite of my cynicism about modern church, I am pleased to see a growing movement of churches who are kingdom focused. But I still think the majority of churches are more or less consumer based. IMO, the jury is still out on where the GCR will head. Hopefully it will accomplish its goals. My fear is that many churches, which are not kingdom minded, will go along with it merely because it is the thing to do. Time will tell. Hopefully we will see a grassroots revival.
“a person does not have to be “hung up with the sexual stuff” to recognize that the folks in Sodom had gone far beyond homosexuality in their perverse lifestyles.”
I agree that the sin went beyond homosexuality. It went all the way to pride and enjoying the “American dream” at the expense of the poor.
The point was that we often see the appalling and rampant sexual sin in the city and stop there.
RE: 96
We are in complete agreement that our culture is depraved. It isn’t surprising to find that lost people act lost. What bothers me is when I see that the church is as close as it is to being guilty of Eze 16.
Rastis,
Your post involved sexual perversion and the topic of alcohol. I simply engaged the substance of the post relating to the two. I also engaged you in agreement that we must take the gospel to the cities also. I also engaged you about you faulty exegetical work on the Text in reference.
I also engaged you about you “sleeping in class” at SEBTS.
I guess maybe you might have been “asleep” when I engaged you about all those things other than deviant sexual conduct and the use of beverage alcohol.
Strange you only “wake up” then, you think?
cb
Brother Rastis,
Sorry for the lateness of returning to the dance. It seems that you still have Brother CB for your partner regardless of the amount of times Brother David R. tries to cut in.
This is a great discussion and one that truly makes one observe the scriptural content.
However, you say; “You [Tim] call Lot a false teacher.” I believe if you read my comment you will see that I have not places Lot as false teacher. I said; “The Scripture you pointed out presents only his right teaching.” The point is that 2 Peter is not referencing Lot’s lifestyle but his character. His righteousness, as Abraham’s, was his trust. If Genesis 15:8 is the standard for Abraham’s righteousness and 2 Peter tells us that Lot was righteous then Lot’s righteousness has got to be the same type of faith.
The lifestyle that Lot found himself around that “vexed” his soul was of his choosing. Thus, he was not in Sodom as a missional assignment. He was there because he chose that land on his own wisdom not God’s leadership.
Blessings,
Tim
CB,
Its good for you, then, that I did all that sleeping
In 94, you appeared to read yourself into the comment, or some how take it that I was implying you in there. It is true that there is much sexual content involved. Contrary to the extent of the coverage, alcohol was a minor theme. You are right to say you talked about them because they were in there. I find no fault in this. The comment you quoted talked about people who went that far to note objectionable content and stop. As you point out in #98, this is exactly what you did. The whole point of the comment you quoted in 94 was to say that people don’t get very far past sex. And this is what you just did… I realize I am groggy and all, but even I get it. You are in good company. Most of the preachers I have heard and commentaries I have read on the topic do the same thing. When we see the story through the eyes of Eze 16 and Peter, and actually take them seriously, then we go beyond sexuality. I would say you have gone beyond that, but ad hominem doesn’t count.
Sorry bout the confusion concerning lot being a false teacher. There was an awkward sentence in there i took the wrong way.
“The lifestyle that Lot found himself around that “vexed” his soul was of his choosing.”
Yes.
“Thus, he was not in Sodom as a missional assignment.”
No. That’s a non sequitur. most missionaries are one the field of their own choosing. If they have any conscience and biblical grounding they will be vexed by what is around them.
“Most of the preachers I have heard and commentaries I have read on the topic do the same thing.”
So, Rastis, most of the preachers and writers you have heard and read have gotten it wrong?
Remember what I said to you about Bantam Roosters?
Rastis, Your exegesis was and still is faulty. I tell you what, if you are still in Wake Forest go talk to Mark Rooker about this Text.
By the way, do you really believe Lot’s daughters acted in godly faith? You never did respond to that.
Rastis, I really do think you have superimposed many ideas of your own upon the substance of the Text in reference.
Lastly, of which American Dream are you speaking? Because history records that the American Dream has changed over and over and from generation to generation.
The Text had nothing to do with the American Dream. You merely superimposed your concept of what the American Dream is in your current context.
Let me ask you this and I have to let it go today. Do you not yet agree you could have used a far better example than the story of Lot to impart the basic truth of your post?
cb
CB,
Comment 81 addressed your question concerning Lot’s daughters and my use of lot as an example.
Am I cocky just because I disagree with you? Or do you assume I am cocky because you assume I am a kid. I could be 75… Remember what I said about ad hominem?
I am not saying most commentators have it wrong, only they stop short. There are many who go beyond and present the whole picture [No doubt, Dr Rooker is familiar with these].
In your post which dealt with “exegesis” you only spoke in vague generalities. ..except for the part about hitting people with bricks and and ripping guts out.
I haven’t superimposed anything. I am only trying to read scripture in light of scripture.
In regards to the American dream, I am speaking of the materialistic version. I haven’t placed this back in genesis. This is why I put it in quotes, to signal that I am using it tongue in cheek. It is a helpful analogy for those who wonder why I see our churches so perilously close to Eze 16. I thought about calling it the “sodomite dream” but that is probably prone to being misunderstood…
Brother Rastis,
I am going to let this be my last statement concerning this issue. The reason is you seem to have a desire to only address this issue as you see it. Why would I say such a thing? You ended your post with the following statement: “I hope to be an urban missionary like Lot when I grow up!” I stated; ““Thus, he was not in Sodom as a missional assignment.” You then tole me my statement was a non sequitur which means it was absurd and not logical. I was not the one who first place the thought out there that Lot was on a missiological assignment–you did. You have addressed Lot as a urban missionary which means Lot felt called by God to be in the location he found himself–something the scriptures do not support. Lot was in Sodom because it looked like the “…land of Egypt”.
You are using 2Peter in order to affirm Lot’s righteousness. I have no problem with that and agree with what you are saying. I guess I just do not understand why you would choose to pick Lot as an example when the Bible clearly picks Abraham.
Blessings,
Tim
Rastis: I appreciate your perseverance and patience. I wonder if Peter came under fire for bringing up Lot in his letters?
Lot had his faults. He no doubt made mistakes. But he is remembered in the NT as a person of righteousness and faith. Abraham is also remembered as a person of righteousness and faith. But he was also a liar, and a coward, ready to sell his wife into slavery and concubinage to save his own skin. Are his sins better than Lot’s? Is Lot to be faulted because when he departed from Abram he chose a place that looked like Egypt? Egypt was one of the most fruitful areas in that part of the world. We read much into Lot’s motives because he ended up in Sodom, but the text hardly justifies it.
Tim,
Sadly, I think you are right. My first comment in this thread was #20. When I said, “What’s the use”, I should have left it at that.
I think I shall join you on this one and leave it be with the following observation:
In 1909 G.K. Chesterton said; “Men do not differ much about what they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable.”
Take note of this part of the quote in light of this post: “….they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable.”
Chesterton’s words have an even greater impact today as is illustrated in the following:
Recently, the Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) seemed to suggest that the Bible isn’t the last word on homosexuality.
It is reported thusly:
Bishop Mark Henson said “….the understanding we have of homosexuality today does not seem to be reflective at all in the context of the biblical writers. Therefore, Lutherans should consider more modern views on sexual orientation.”
He went on to say; “God is still speaking to us.” later he said; “….more homosexual-friendly policies may help the denomination grow.”
Tim, Let’s pray we never hear a Southern Baptist say anything like this: “….more homosexual-friendly policies may help the denomination grow.”
On second thought; Maybe we already have heard it.
cb
Tim,
Non-sequitur means that your conclusion does not follow from the premises. You said that Lot was in Sodom by choice, and thus it could not be a missional assignment. It does not logically follow (ie non sequitur) that if one chooses their place of service that it cannot be considered a missional assignment. This is exactly what missionaries do. I realize he chose the locale because he liked it. It was attractive to him at some level. Again, this is what missionaries do. I didn’t pick my current job because i hate that place. I picked it partly because of a sense of call, and partly because there is something about that place which draws me there.
I don’t have a problem saying lot was not a missionary (The first of which is that there was no such thing at this time). But he wasn’t a non-missionary merely because he picked the location based on the amenities. My claims to be a missionary like lot are, tongue in cheek, metaphorical, and designed to build interest in the readership. Clearly, the first two, have been lost here…
I do address thing from my perspective. I think that is what every human being does (with the exception of schizophrenics).
Abraham is not the only example the Bible chooses. Why must I only be allowed one or the other? Given more time, I will use more examples. This was my first post-trying to save some for later.
CB,
no one is justifying homosexuality here…
Bill,
thanks, I think I can hear the pounding on the door right now!
As far as I can tell, we all are in agreement on the following things:
1. We live in the midst of a lost (and often perverse) world that desperately needs the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
2. As Christians, we are called to be in the world, but not of the world.
3. As a result, a lot of times, in the midst trying to bring the gospel to lost humanity, we are confronted on all sides by a lot of sin and perversity, and vexed, just as Lot was, while he lived in Sodom.
4. The sins of Sodom included, but were not necessarily limited to:
being arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; not helping the poor and needy; being haughty and doing detestable things before God. Among the detestable things they did before God are various acts of sexual perversion, including, especially, homosexuality.
5. Any and all of these sins are worthy of God’s punishment.
6. Any and all of these sins are also able to be covered by blood of Jesus.
7. In the midst of the situations in which we live as Christians (whether of our own choosing, the specific call of God, or a combination of the two), we should seek to be redemptive, and live lives that might be used of God to call lost souls around us to repentance, and a life of faith in God.
8. In the midst of unfortunate circumstances in our lives, and even situations caused by our own lack of wisdom, impetuosity, and selfish motives, God is able to overrule, and out of His mercy, often does, both for our own benefit, as well as in order to carry out His eternal plan to call out a people for Himself and redeem lost humanity.
Wouldn’t it be great if we could just concentrate on these things, and avoid nit-picking about some of the other details we have been discussing? Not that there are not worthy points to be discussed, nor that we should never disagree nor debate issues on which we have convictions, but, it seems like we can, as fellow servants of the same Lord, accomplish more for the advance of His kingdom by focusing more on these things than the others.
Sin is a monster of such freightful mein,
To be hated needs but to be seen.
Seen to oft, familiar with its face,
We soon endure, then pity, then embrace.
David,
Great summary.
I think number 3 resonates the most with me. I grew up with a very black and white understanding of the world. I would reduce things down to the point that they could either be dismissed or accepted. The more I work cross culturally, the more I realize how complex the world truly is. It gives me great respect for Paul who in one chapter approaches Greeks with their own literature and in another chapter takes a vow which requires he not even touch a grape. That is true dexterity!
Another reason #3 resonates is because we are so prone to allow secondary issues vex us to the point that we become mere cultural transformers and not proclaimers of the gospel. Talk about ministering to hispanics in our cities and the big issue that gets in the way is illegal immigration issues. Talk about ministering to Muslims in our cities, and the war on terror and 9-11 become divisive issues. Talk about ministering to the poor, and welfare, democrats, and personal responsibility become the main issues. You can pretty much pick your group and a series of counterfeit debates take prominence over the priority of the kingdom of God and the gospel. Not that some of those issues aren’t important in other contexts, but they are rarely, if ever, the bridge to the Gospel.
Several things do become obvious from Peter’s letter……
Noah’s and Lot’s righteousness was not their own, which is the basis for each of their rescues.
Lot, being made righteous, was rescued by God from temptation in Sodom. Yet from the OT record, he succumbed to unholy living in drunkenness, leading to sexual acts outside of marriage just beyond his rescue.
Proverbs 14:34 Righteousness exalts a nation, But sin is a disgrace to any people.
Romans 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Blessings,
Chris
Some of you will be surprised at the thoughts at this site many of you would dismiss as hopelessly liberal.
It’s about Tim Tebow’s Village
http://foxofbama.blogspot.com/2009/12/tebows-bible-verses.html
Well, I have the link at the end of my blog above worth reading I might add, but if it makes you nauesous do look for the link at the end of it.
Kinda surprised but again heartened both David Rogers and Rastis are fans of Movie The Village.
In my blog on Tebow you will see where my I pay tribute to my Dad who was Incarnated into the Village of Gaffney and Bore Witness there and make reference to my current Village where some fundamentalists and their enablers need to get right with Jesus.
For what it is worth,
I will be appearing on a KCBI radio station to talk about this article and the idea of taking the Gospel to dark places.
Here is the link if you want to listen live. The show starts at 5pm CST. I will be on the show at 530.
http://www.kcbi.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=listenonline
I listened to Dr. Smith…. Was the show today or tomorrow?
My bad… It will be on thursday.
Nevermind… The job which pays my bills sent me out of town. Another time perhaps