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Choosing a Counselor
Posted by Bowden McElroy in Church & Missions
I have a friend who has a “guy” for every situation. Wheel fall off your car? He can put you in touch with his tire guy; right after you see his front-end guy. Need a new suit? He’s got a guy who can get you a good deal; but he’ll send you to a different guy for the alterations. Time for new windows and siding on your house? My friend knows a guy. You get the idea.
Most of us need more than a recommendation from a friend when it comes to choosing a counselor. I don’t refer to other counselors or physicians unless I know them. Knowing they are competent is merely the starting point. I want to know something about their walk with Christ, something about their character, something about their own marriage or how they’ve raised their children.
The time to do your research is before the need arises. And every pastor needs a counselor to whom he can refer. You may find yourself dealing with a situation you’ve never encountered before. You may need a referral for when you are on a mission trip or on vacation. You may just want another counselor to bounce ideas off (“staffing a case” in therapist-speak).
(If you are a minister and live in the Tulsa, OK area I’m happy – at no charge – to staff a case with you. If I’m not available any one of my colleagues will be more than willing to step in. It’s something we at Christian Family Institute have always done.)
I did a quick internet search and found lots of advice on how to find the right therapist/counselor for you or a family member. Two of the more helpful pieces are below:
From David Martin (Chaplain at Regent University):
There is a vast difference between a Christian who is a counselor and a Christian counselor. Some counselors use the term Christian because they have learned this may expand their practice.
There are a number of things you need to consider before choosing a counselor:
Which type of counselor do you think would be the best? Choosing between a pastoral counselor, lay counselor or a licensed professional is a choice you must make.
What is the payment structure? Does the counselor accept insurance payment and is he/she accepted by your insurance? Is there a sliding scale based on ability to pay? Does you church assist people who need counseling?
Is there a trusted person (pastor or friend) who recommends this counselor?
What kind of licensure or certification does the counselor have?
What experience does the counselor have in dealing with your specific issue?
Does it matter to you if you have a male or female counselor? It is also important for you to know some things about what this professing Christian counselor believes and how that applies to the way that he or she practices their counseling. Psalm 1 declares that, “Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly.” You may call the counselors office and tell them that you would like to ask the counselor some questions before you set up an appointment for counseling.
Some of the information you may be able to get from the office worker (or web site):
What is your general approach to counseling?
How do you integrate Biblical truths into your counseling?
Are you involved in a church? Which one and in what role are you involved?
How do you integrate Biblical truths into your counseling?
What part does prayer play in the way that you counsel? Do you pray with clients?
What is their perspective on the miraculous?
What is their view on certain on any key moral/ethical issues of concern for you. Issues such as abortion, divorce, remarriage, homosexuality, discipline of children, roles of husband and wife.
From David Powlison (Christian Counseling & Educational Foundation):
Ask your prospective counselor:
1. How would you describe your approach to counseling? How do you understand people’s problems? How do you help them grow and change through counseling? Please describe the process.
2. What books or other resources do you recommend on a regular basis? What books have most influenced your approach to counseling?
3. Are you a Christian? How does your faith affect your view and practice of counseling?
4. Do you bring Christian truth into your counseling practice? How? What role does Scripture play?
5. Do you pray with those you counsel?
6. Do you attend church? If so, where? How long have you been a member?
7. What is your educational and professional background? What role does it play?
8. Are you married? Do you have children? Have you ever been divorced? How does your marriage and family situation affect how you counsel people?
Remember…
Counseling is an interactive process. It is established and maintained on the basis of trust. Open and honest dialogue between a counselor and a counselee is the most important component of building trust. If you cannot establish this foundation early on, so that you are confident that the counselor will be wise, biblical, loving, and faithful in your interaction, you may need to look elsewhere. If you find a wise counselor who uses God’s Word to help you grow in your Christian walk, your marriage and your family, Scripture says you will be blessed!
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Good stuff, Bowden. I’ve found that it’s helpful to have several counselors hanging around…lol. Seriously, I’ve got maybe six that I use on a fairly regular basis. The biggest factors that I use are cost and experience. If someone can’t pay, then I’ve got the free option (usually less experience). Our church pays an absurdly low retainer ($100/month) to a Christian counseling group in our community that allows our people to get counseling at a greatly reduced price. We also have some counselors-in-training that provide more of a mentoring approach for some of the “Less serious” issues. I wish you were in my area…
Dave,
One of the advantages I have is that I’m in a group practice: there are nine of us (when you add the full-time and part-timers together) plus we have one or two interns at any given time. So… we can function as a sort of one-stop-shopping for nearly all counseling concerns.
I have an agreement with several churches where I will give a significant discount for members the pastor refers in exchange for the church agreeing to pay CFI directly for the first 4 sessions. My thinking is I can usually manage a crisis in 4 sessions and return the client to the church for lay-counseling/support groups/discipleship. For most churches it’s not much money because they’re looking at only one or two crisis each year. This allows the church to have a counselor “on staff” and retain some ownership of the ministry. (If the client wants/needs more than four sessions then we look at insurance, cash-pay, hand off to an intern, etc.) Depending on how many referrals you make each year, a similar system might cost you less than the $1200 annually you’re currently paying.
In Cedar Rapids, I “had a guy” I sent my people to when I thought there was a need. Since I moved, I haven’t found a replacement.
I have very specific tastes in Christian counselling which limit the field. I want someone who is first and foremost biblical, not the nominal Christian spin on standard secular counseling. Its not always easy to find.
I wish you lived in Sioux City.
Dave Miller,
Ordinarily I would recommend looking at the American Association of Christian Counselors web site (aacc.net). But I already looked; there are only three members in IA and none are within 100 miles of you.
Dave Miller,
I just had another thought. You really need to bug your state convention’s Executive Director: he could survey the pastors in the state asking who they refer to for counseling. Putting together a list of counselors, which pastor referred them, what they specialize in, and what they charge would be an easy task to accomplish. And a valuable resource for every pastor in the convention.
Bowden,
I’ve always wondered about putting a counselor on staff – someone whose views were compatible with mine. He (or she) would do counseling for us as needed, and also maintain a professional practice.
I’ve wondered about liability and things like that. Not planning anything anytime soon, but I have had this in mind for some time.
Any thoughts? There may be reasons why this is a very bad idea.
Dave,
Liability isn’t really the issue. The main reasons counselor’s get sued have to do with HIPAA privacy laws and dual relationships; in other words… if you maintain confidentiality and refrain from sleeping with your clients the odds of losing a law suit are very low. (Professional liability insurance is ridiculously cheap; I pay less than $200 per year.)
The first thing you have to decide is do you want a professional (i.e. licensed) counselor or do you want a pastoral counselor? If you want this person to be able to charge a fee then they need to be licensed. If you want to give away counseling but will accept donations then it doesn’t matter. If they’re not licensed, then I think it is easiest if they are an ordained minister on staff.
The next big issue is confidentiality. Professional counselors who are on a church staff get themselves in trouble when they promise the client confidentiality but the pastor expects to be notified if a church member is in need of church discipline. The counselor CAN be free to tell the pastor anything IF the limits of confidentiality are spelled out in the beginning minutes of the first session. (And are spelled out VERY clearly in writing in the counseling paperwork.)
The last consideration is how will you pay the counselor. The one idea that might cause problems is seeing the church members for free and charging for non-members. You run the risk of the counselor filling his schedule with non-members in order to make a living or seeing so many church members he has to quit and get a real job.
Another model is to rent space to a counselor and then let him run it as a private practice… but that would mean charging the church members. A variation on this is to find a counselor who is willing to be a modern day circuit rider: one or two days a week at your church and one or two days at a different church in a neighboring town. Cheap office space in exchange for a reduced rate for church members should be an attractive offer. If I were starting over again today I would seriously try to set up a practice as a circuit rider; I would much rather be the only Christian counselor in a couple of different towns than to face the competition of several counselors in a large city.
Anyway… a long answer to a short question. The short answer is there is less potential liability from a professional counselor than there is in taking the youth group across town in a church van.
Bowden:
Since you have raised church discipline, I have a question. Is there any “linkage” between Christian Counseling and church discipline?
I have been a member of Baptist Churches since 1957. During this time I only recall one instance of “church discipline”. This was in the early 1960s when a person, who was a former pastor, was kicked out of the church for some reason. I don’t think I ever knew the reason. I was a teenager when this happened. It could have been that the reason was never announced publicly. However, I do recall a special called business meeting which was called to vote on this guy’s dismissal. I voted against it since I thought he should be some stipulation of the charges and some chance for the accused to rebutt them.
It seems to me like “church discipline” is a dinosaur in SBC life.
How do you handle the situation when you become aware of activity that rises to the point that some type of discipline is warrented? Or is it the case that there is a presumed or actual “immunity” when a person seeks counsel from you.
The same question could be asked if a person admits to criminal activity.
Roger Simpson Oklahoma City OK
Bowden, thank you for the wise advice. Will you bill my insurance?
Roger,
Re: church discipline. I think church discipline takes many forms, not just kicking someone out. Using Matt 18 as a guide, when a Sunday school teacher encourages a dad to spend more time with his family… that fits my definition of church discipline. I agree with you that I have rarely seen instances of discipline – at any level – as a church member. As a pastor, I followed Mt 18 to the first two levels (talking with someone one-on-one and then going back with someone else when necessary) many times.
Re: confidentiality in counseling. The standard is “imminent harm”. If a client is going to commit suicide or homicide or I suspect child abuse or elder abuse, then confidentiality is broken and others are notified. Otherwise I maintain confidences. If a client were to admit to criminal activities that do not involve physical danger to self or others, then I keep their secrets.
If I were on a church staff and there was an expectation I would inform the pastor of sin in my client’s lives, then that would have to be spelled out very clearly from the first minute I met with the client.
At that point, most people would simply keep quiet and not discuss any problems… which is why we promise confidentiality in the first place.
Roger,
I almost forgot. Your question about how I handle situations where some kind of church discipline is required. Since my case load is made up of 15-25% ministers at any given time, this is a very real scenario for me. Some of the ministers I counsel are in affairs, abusing substances (most often alcohol or prescription drugs), or hitting the casinos too often, etc.
One of my goals for counseling is the minister would seek to disclose these sins himself. Obviously that doesn’t happen until we’re well into the counseling process. I am constantly surprised – pleasantly so – that this is often what happens. At some point in the process most guys recognize their secrets will eventually come out (not from me, but from someone) and they see the wisdom of addressing it themselves. It may not be to the congregation at large, but to the deacons, elders (if that’s how their church is structured) or to a group of pastors.
Bowden:
As you say (and the Bible says) it is generally the case that “your sin will find you out” [Num 32:23]. The thing that I see that characterizes your whole work is that you are seeking reconcilation between the person you are conseling and God. You are trying to “turn people around” before things degenerate more — not “destroy” them.
What a victorious thing is is when people are pointed back to repentance before there is even more serious damage.
What a job you have over there in Tulsa!! It makes my job (actually my former job) of being a manager of microcode development seem petty by comparison.
Roger Simpson Oklahoma City
Brother Bowden,
Interesting topic…
I am curious if these Pastors, during counseling, are continuing to be “working Pastors” (employed by the church) or if they are Pastors seeking counseling while stepping away from their responsibilities to lead (recognizing that they are disqualified from leading because of certain sin).
Where does the confidentiality of the Pastor become jeopardy for the church? For instance, if a Pastor has an alcohol problem or prescription drug problem, or anger issue,…what is your responsibility as a counselor for the well being of the church that is being served by an unqualified man? And is there any benefit to bringing the sin before the church, so that others will not sin.
Thank you in advance…(this may take the form of an invoice later on)..
Blessings,
Chris
Dave, I have a pastoral counselor (licensed, etc.) who serves on staff as a volunteer. He has his own practice and and our church simply assists him with the cost of conferences, etc. that he may want to attend. He only sees men and so he is not useful for every need.
Chris,
Good question! These pastors come to me in one of two ways.
The first is by self-referral. They are seeking me out on their own and I may be the only other person who knows they are in counseling. Full confidentiality applies. I don’t communicate anything to their congregation without the express written consent of my client.
If that sounds calloused toward the congregation, I would urge you to remember a few things. 1) It is the promise of confidentiality that allows them the freedom to seek help. 2) They are miles ahead of the “unqualified” men who are ministering and not seeking help or not willing to admit there is a problem. And, 3) at some point in counseling I am likely to recommend they step down, take a sabbatical, or at the very least build accountability into their ministry by bringing church leadership in on the treatment plan.
The other way ministers come to me is when they are forced by their congregation or bishop or district superintendent (I don’t restrict my practice to Southern Baptists). In that case there is an understanding from the beginning that the proper releases will be signed and I will be making reports back to the referring body.
I often, for example, see staff members referred by the senior pastor (or personnel committee or whomever) where therapy is but one step in a long list of requirements for maintaining their position.
Gentlemen,
I’m just wondering if there is an official list of sins that would disqualify a pastor from serving. I have thus far been unable to conquer my tendency to sin and just want to make sure that I don’t have anything on the official list. I’m sure the big embarrassing stuff would blow one of the ministry water for sure. But I’m wondering about the less serious stuff like exaggerating, overeating, watching March Madness instead of working, not being loving, etc. Jesus does make a distinction between “big” sins and “little” sins, doesn’t He? I’ll check for responses a little later…I’m off to count the dill in my herb garden.
–Dave
Here’s my list (see 1Tim. 3 with emphasis on the phrase “must be”):
The question, for me, is when does a temporary response to a situation become a lifestyle?
Bowden, I agree with the list and it’s authoritative nature. It’s always refreshing to get biblical answers and I’ve grown to expect that yours usually are.
One difficulty in evaluating a pastor’s sin, I would think, would be the diversity of potential interpretations coming out of the 1 Timothy list and the subjective nature of many of those interpretations. We can clearly recognize the drunkard and the recent convert–but at what level does a “liker” of money become a “lover” of money?
I guess that I just want to suggest that pastors need to be taken off of their pedestals. I think we all have stuff that we need to be working on–and hopefully we all are. Your discernment of “temporary” vs “lifestyle” is maybe as good of a lens to look through as any I’ve heard. Using myself as an example, I am quite literally, “The husband of one wife”. However, there are times when I don’t act much like a “husband”. I don’t always manage my household well, I’m not always self-controlled, I’m not always sober-minded (not sure I want to be), I’m not always hospitable, etc.
I tend to think that God chose me not because of my virtue but because of his virtue. I find the pages of scripture filled with the lives of struggling sinners whom God chose to use (David, Moses, Peter, Paul, etc). I wish that more pastors would find the courage to go and visit with guys like you. The expectation of perfection and its consistant failure is a heavy burden to carry alone. I regularly meet with a counselor/advisor/mentor/friend whom I have given the authority to speak into my life (and boy does he!). The process has allowed me over time to give up some of my “people-pleasing” superman tendencies.
Thanks for what you do, Bowden. Take good care of those treasures in clay pots that God sends your way–God may not be done with them quite yet.
–Dave
Dave,
“At what level…” speaks to the issues of community, consensus, and accountability. When I have a group of godly men (community) who really know me (accountability), then I need to defer to their opinion (consensus) about where the line is.
Brother Bowden,
Thank you for the answers… It is difficult to discern more than one situation and each case has it own flavor. I’m sure you are met with some unusual situations and provide a great deal of help!
Let me put some better context to my first question, as Dave Samples has brought up a good and important question.
Just this week, there have been two fellowships in our town that have had pastors “resign” because of inappropriate behavior. Nothing was said of the behavior, so it leaves the church to either gather the reality of the offense by hearsay or to remain uninformed (and deal with it through other means). Here is the question that seems to surface in the event that a Pastor resigns in the midst of sin.
Should the church and its leadership:
(a) Accept the resignation, and not inform the church of the sin for fear of harming the individual.
(b) Bring the sin before the church, so that the church will be fearful of sinning.
(c) Other….?
This is a prevalent question in the church today. How should it be answered?
Blessings,
Chris
Bowden, I agree completely.
Chris, You raise important and difficult questions. I tend to believe that the best scenario would be for the pastor to reveal his failure to the church himself in his own words if it is resulting in his termination or resignation. The problem is further complicated by the fact that the pastor may have children who, in my opinion, deserve to be protected as much as possible. The matter of who knows what and how much do they know is very hard to judge without looking at the particular situation and taking into account the various circumstances. To have a spiritual leader just disappear without any type of explanation seems extremely undesirable. As you may can tell, I have a mercy gift, which tends to tilt my view of these types of things. Chris, you are right that this has become a prevalent question that deserves careful consideration. I think that confession is a biblical mandate that we could use a lot more of–complemented with a healthy dose of gracious forgiveness and restoration (whenever appropriate).
–Dave
Chris,
It’s a little like divorcing parents asking how much should they tell their kids: the answer is “it depends”.
Here are the guidelines I suggest when I’m asked as a consultant to churches to help them through the situation:
1) Never lie. Telling people it was for “personal reasons” when in fact there was unrepentant sin is a lie.
2) Don’t give so many details that it harms a third party. I’m thinking of one pastor who used the internet to proposition an 18 year-old. Giving enough details that a church member could figure out who in the community he propositioned might cause harm to the young lady without offering any help to the church.
3) Reconciliation is – or should be – the goal. Reconciling a minister to God and to his family is always my first priority. Restoration to full-time ministry is (almost?) always a possibility; I want to leave the door open for that process to occur.
4) Helping the congregation view the crisis as an opportunity to refine their perception of themselves is always a goal. If nothing is said to the people, how can they evaluate their part in the crisis? For example, a minister who has an affair is certainly responsible for his own actions; that said, a congregation that expects their pastor to put the church before his marriage may share some of the blame in the sense that they made it that much more difficult for the pastor and his wife to have a healthy, godly marriage. (The best way to affair-proof your marriage is to be constantly striving for the best marriage possible.)
Or, a congregation that has had a run of bad luck with pastors who leave because of sin or burnout may need to look at how they view calling a pastor. Paul’s admonition to Timothy I referenced above is all about character: there is NOTHING in there about education, experience, age, or even how dynamic a preacher one is. It’s tough to assess character from a resume, two sermons, three references, and a weekend visit.
I’m sure I could think of other guidelines… but that will have to do for now.
Brother Bowden,
Thank you for the answers….
You established a very important thing for congregations to remember… “Or, a congregation that has had a run of bad luck with pastors who leave because of sin or burnout may need to look at how they view calling a pastor. Paul’s admonition to Timothy I referenced above is all about character: there is NOTHING in there about education, experience, age, or even how dynamic a preacher one is. It’s tough to assess character from a resume, two sermons, three references, and a weekend visit.”
That is so very, very important….to appoint Leaders based on qualification!
Here’s what gets overlooked a lot of times in these type situations though. The question always remains…is it important enough to declare sin an important enough matter to confront in the church. It appears today that we play the political corporate game to protect those we deem as innocent even at the expense of following the command of Christ,…when it can be argued that Christ is more interested that the church understand the gravity of sin.
1 Timothy 5:19-20 “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. (20) Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.”
Do you think that rebuking in the presence of all is beneficial?… and why would it be?
Thank you again for tackling these tough questions (Dave, please do as well)
Blessings,
Chris
Chris,
If you’re asking do I think it’s important to follow Christ’s commands, the answer is a resounding “yes”.
My concern is that people jump the gun and confront too early (i.e. before following all of Mt. 18) or confront for the wrong reasons. The right reason, in my understanding, is to win a brother back to Christ.
A pastor in unrepentant sin needs to be brought before the church: for his sake, for the sake of the congregation, and for the sake of other congregations that may be considering calling him to their church.
I know of one man who – having been caught in an affair – was unrepentant. He suggested the church change his job description to “preaching pastor” since all agreed he was such a dynamic speaker and then call someone else to minister one-on-one with church members. He didn’t see how divorcing his wife and living with his girlfriend would have any impact on his ability to preach. Needless to say, the congregation would have none of it.
My experience (for whatever it’s worth) is that few men are interested in carrying on a lifestyle of unrepentant sin. Most of the ministers I deal with want to live righteously but, for a variety of reasons, feel helplessly trapped in their circumstances.
BTW, it could also be argued that Christ is interested in how a church models repentance, reconciliation, and restoration at least as much (if not more) as whether or not the congregation understands the gravity of sin.
Brother Bowden,
You have touched on where I am trying to focus the dialogue. Let’s use the situation with the Pastor that was caught in an affair. That would seem to me to be a clear sin (whether he was repentant or not) that should be brought to the church immediately and the Pastor is removed immediately,…no negotiations necessary. We can work with him on the repentance (which I would hope, pray that he would have while we love him) along the way. Unfortunately for the church, the man in your example was probably not qualified to lead in the first place with the his negotiating tactics… wanting another role “preaching pastor”… that is truly amazing, and clearly illustrates he is clueless concerning the role of Elder.
It just seems to me we get confused with Matthew 18 and the clear mandate for Elders to be qualified and responsible before the congregation. I believe Elders that commit blatant sin (as you mentioned above) should not receive anything short of being brought before the church immediately (hours, not days). It seems we have a culture that tends to harbor “sin”… sin that is clearly obvious and disqualifies an Elder; then turning to negotiations and sweep it under the rug techniques.
Am I being to hard on the guy or unrealistic to bring him before the congregation?
Blessings,
Chris
This is a great discussion, and absolutely relevant for this day and age. Bowden, I commend you for taking the scripture as your guideline for ministerial qualifications. What leaps out at me from the 1 Timothy 3 passage is the idea every “qualification” for the leaders of God’s people has to do with his character, with only one “ability” mentioned — “able to teach.” He is “to equip the saints for the work of ministry” (Eph 4:12), so empowering the saints is vital to such a ministry. But God doesn’t want just any “teacher,” but rather one who believes his message so much that he indeed lives it out. After all, teachers will be held to a “stricter judgment” (James 3:1), both for the truth that they are supposed to teach (2 Tim 2:15) and for the example that they are supposed to give (1 Tim 4:12). The leader’s “heart” (or character) is the center of the issue, not his abilities. This idea of being “above reproach” (1 Tim 3:2) should make us all tremble.
At our seminary we have moved the formation (or “transformation”) of the minister’s character to the top of the list in our course of training. More and more required courses and the thrust of our curriculum and extra curriculum are focused on “being the right kind of person.” The rest of curricular content is focused on the “equipping role” the minister is supposed to have. God is more interested in who you are in Him than in whatever you may be able to perform for Him. Besides, He wants to do His work through you anyway (Gal 2:20), and He wants to have a vessel that is indeed empowered by His Spirit rather than by our worldly wisdom and abilities.
Brother Dave,
These are tough and difficult scenarios that we are plowing….so please don’t take my questions or comments as to what you may or may not do. ( a little disqualifier as I work through these)
When you said….
“Chris, You raise important and difficult questions. I tend to believe that the best scenario would be for the pastor to reveal his failure to the church himself in his own words if it is resulting in his termination or resignation.”
I have seen that scenario (above) worked many times and have always had problems with it…. I think I finally understand why I experience a queasy knot in my stomach when I hear about this each time it happens after 30 years in ministry (I’m kind of a slow learner or hard headed). I do agree that we are to have mercy on the man, “all the time”, whether in good times or bad times, no matter the sin. It seems to me though, we have opted to have the church work through the “offense” backwards and not according to Christ’s command.
There is a reason that God has instructed that such sin (an affair, drunkenness, homosexuality, etc…things that clearly disqualify an Elder) be brought before the church immediately, so that the church understands that sin is not tolerated among the leaders. Now, that doesn’t mean that the one caught in the sin be the one to announce it to the church through a resignation or in another manner (there may be a place for that later, confess your sins, etc.). On the other hand, it does mean that the leaders (scripturally plural) would bring it (sin) immediately before the church, so that fear would be understood rightly in the church.
I recognize that most church structures within the SBC do not have a plurality of Godly men leading the church, so it is not a surprise that the behavior of allowing the sinning leader to confess, resign, etc. is the unfortunate result. The result though, is devastating to the church, and causes much confusion and eventually division.
I’m not sure if churches are willing to confront sin these days in the manner put forth by the Word of God.
Just some thoughts,
Blessings,
Chris
Chris, I’m processing through all of this as well–I certainly don’t want you to think that I have my mind made up about how to proceed.
I guess I’m thinking that everyone should be given the opportunity to explain themselves–don’t know that the entire church is the correct forum. That’s where I guess the multiple scenarios would make this a difficult discussion (church size, multiple ministers, etc.). We almost need an exact situation to discuss.
I have a good friend who lost his ministry due to moral failure. I think the church handled it very well and very redemptively. He has been able to work through his stuff with multiple counselors and is now on staff at a very large SBC church as support staff. BTW, he worked through a very intentional process over a series of many years before having the opportunity to serve that he now enjoys. To my knowledge he is doing great. At the time of his discovery, I don’t think that he was allowed to address the church in any way. I received a personal letter from him in which he disclosed his failures. I think it was only sent to friends and family.
I see a difference between someone who is “caught” versus someone who shares his struggle with a counselor. The motivation for healing seems very different. One is trying to get better…one is trying to hide.
I entered the waters on this issue only because I sensed that it was being suggested that ministers are not allowed to struggle with sin and if they are then we must get rid of them. I know longer believe that you or anyone else is suggesting such. So with that…I’m very happy to head back to March Madness and observe from afar.
Go Memphis!
Brother Dave,
I think your right that all Elders struggle with sin,…after all, we are still sinners.
It is good when an Elder will go and seek help….instead of being caught and simply sorry he got caught. And…there is no doubt that a man can be restored to leadership, depending upon the extent and consequences of his sin when entrusted with leading God’s flock.
Of course I am still begging the question, if the sin is… say a “sexual affair” with a woman in the church or outside the church, should the sin be brought before the church. It seems that scripture is intent that the congregation is to learn something….and sooner than later. Is there a reason that God would instruct this to be done?
No doubt this would be an unusual act in the church today… but is there any benefit?
Btw,..Memphis is looking pretty good!
Blessings,
Chris
I think part of the “problem” with church discipline for a person who is a staff member is confusion between “being kicked out of the church” vs. “discipline” vs. being “fired”. Regardless of anything else, I think any staff member who is involved in a serious offense should be removed from his job (possibly with some type of severance package depending on circumstances). Depending upon developments in the upcoming months then maybe he should also be kicked out and/or disciplined.
I personally don’t know exactly what “discipline” means since in my 45 years of being a Baptist I’ve never observed a church “disciplining” anyone. Normally, the person that potentially might be disciplined is either kicked out or leaves.
In some denominations a pastor can be “defrocked”. In the case of Baptists I don’t think there is such a thing as revoking a person’s ordination. If there is, I never heard of it.
I have one question regarding counseling for a person who is a staff member. Is the counselor “representing” the person he is counseling? If so, is there a “conflict of interest” in terms of the counselor giving advice to the aggreved parties on the other side — such as a church.
Maybe a legal paradygm does not apply. In law, at least, a person can’t simultaneously represent both the plantiff and defendent. This is true because the person repesenting the defendent is explicitely presumed to not be representing the interest of the other side. Our legal system is based upon an “adversial system” with both sides putting up evidence and a neutral third party making the decision — i.e. judge or jury.
Roger Simpson Oklahoma City OK
Roger,
I think we err when we think of church discipline only as “kicking people out.” One of the most important aspects of discipline is setting clear standards of behavior, making people aware of what the bible says and what it demands of them.
The consistent application of the Word from the pulpit and throughout the church creates an environment in which people know what is right and wrong. The more clearly I define the standards and the more completely I preach the whole counsel of God, the less likely it is that we will need to disfellowship anyone.
In other words, we can have a well-disciplined church without constantly excommunicating folks.
Brother Roger,
I think you are absolutely right based upon scripture. Any Elder (I’m confining my focus on Elders) that engages in a “serious offense”, should be confronted and the sin brought before the church immediately. In the event that a member,… that is not an Elder, is found out in such a sin, he is confronted but not brought before the church unless after a time he refuses to repent and cannot be won over to God’s love through the love shown in Matthew 18.
There is wonderful therapy for the church that understands its leaders are “qualified”, because as she understands that God’s leaders must be qualified, the church will be taught not to sin in great reverential fear to God. That kind of therapy may be foreign in today’s culture,…but it is perfect in the eternal culture of the church. Some of the congregation will say “Oh my,..isn’t that a bit harsh”… the answer from the remaining Elders should be,… “yes, it is harsh” because sin is an offense to the church that Christ gave His life to redeem.
Roger, it is sad that the love of Matthew 18 is not lived out in our churches. When it is, the bride has relationships of love in Christ like never before, and the congregation broadens its understanding of why Christ would lay down His life.
Thank you for the post,…it does bring out some salient thoughts.
Blessings,
Chris
Chris J.,
I’ve been away from the computer (which is normal for me on the weekends) so I’m just now catching up on the conversation. I have a couple of thoughts:
1) Re: your comment (#25) about the man in my scenario probably not being qualified in the first place. That’s a presumption I’m not willing to make. We’re all capable of moral failure; in fact, we’re all capable of huge moral failings. I’ve seen good men change over the course of time… not always for the better.
2) Re: removing men from ministry in terms of “hours, not days”. Rushing to judgment may cause as much harm to the congregation as overlooking sin.
3) I don’t see that we have to make a choice between following Mt. 18 and 1 Tim. chapter 3. Both passages are True and both passages should be applied. It goes back to my distinction between an impulsive or reactive sinful behavior and a lifestyle of sin. One sin – no matter how large – and you’re out leads to a culture of perfectionism/legalism which then leads to a culture of keeping secrets and valuing appearance over substance.
Roger,
Many counselors see clients who have been forced into treatment. The most obvious example is the alcoholic court-ordered into treatment.
Take the example of a youth minister ordered to counseling because the pastor believes he is unorganized, a little hot-headed, and forgetful (at typical youth pastor with ADHD in other words). First I would help the youth minister to decide whether or not he thought the allegations were true. If he becomes convinced the pastor is correct, then I help him with the issues for which he was referred.
If, though, he is convinced he has no problems with organization and anger (at least, no more than the normal person), then I would help him assess his relationship with the pastor: how can he demonstrate he’s okay or how can he leave his current church for one that is a better fit for him.
The ethical principle is the person sitting in my office is my primary responsibility. Reports back to the pastor would include treatment goals and my assessment of his progress toward those goals. If I think the pastor got it wrong and we’re really looking at a “bad fit” then I would say so.
Brother Bowden,
Thank you for the responses.
I was being presumptuous concerning the man in the scenario, not because of the “failure”, but because of the statement he made later of wanting to be the “preaching pastor” while working through his “issue”. That type of thinking (preaching pastor syndrome) clearly comes out when a man is aspiring to Elder/Pastor the church and his life is examined by the church and the Leadership. But, some guys are really good actors and have made enough connections through seminary to fool us all. That I will give you.
Obviously I have not been clear enough to point out the importance of confronting “obvious sin” of a Leader (Pastor/Elder) “immediately” in the life of the church. I believe it is extremely damaging to the church to “not immediately” bring it before the church. In the case of “obvious sin”(unfaithful in marriage, homosexuality, drunkenness) are important enough to bring to the church, not wait. I believe “waiting” to expose these types of sinful behavior in the church is systemic of the problems we have in the churches in America today. It is indicative of misunderstanding the reason for the church in the world, but not being of it.
I have tried to delineate that Leaders (Pastor/Elders) are held to a higher standard, so I am careful not mix someone (not Elder/Pastor) into being brought immediately.
A good example is the youth minister (assuming he is not a Pastor/Elder, because such an accusation would be handled differently) could be an excellent reason to have the counselor (person #2) and the Pastor confront the youth pastor, since it is the pastor that is offended by the issues (hot-headed-pride, unorganized, etc.). This would need to come before the church at some-point though, …. not just send either of the parties to another place if somehow the youth Pastor explains away the anger, or if the Pastor is lying. That would be bizarre….since we do not have Apostolic authority (as I have heard the Paul and Mark conflict brought up to defend this type of activity.)
Again, thank you for the answers….and forgive me if I have taken us down a dog trail to another subject.
Blessings,
Chris