A "Smackdown" of the "Non-Traditional"
Posted by Rob Ayers in Baptist Life, Church & Missions
There’s an epidemic these days, it seems to me, of people who are convinced that they hold in their hands an inerrant-but-indecipherable Bible. God must be great at accuracy but horrible at communication. – Bart Barber on SBCImpact! “Much Ado About Nothing” #60, May 14, 2008 @ 7:29 p.m.
Yes, there are loosey-goosey relationships in this world by which we know not whether we are acquaintances, friends, friends with benefits, casual daters, or what-not. And the world is much the worse for it. The best relationships in my life are the ones that, as the normal course of a normal life, I have formalized. – Bart Barber on SBCImpact! “Much Ado About Nothing” #94, May 15, 2008 @ 12:11 p.m.
The above quotes can be said in one word: “excellent.” They are succinctly spoken, and represent an observant perception of the elixir of our times. What is amazing of course to me is that Bart said these two quotations within two days of each other! But then again, he says a great many things (at least of those things I agree, unless I disagree), most of which are found on his blog. His comments recently about a former pastor of his exemplify the model of servant leadership I aspire to.
In the referenced article, he compares his former pastor with another one that is making headlines these days in evangelical circles: Mark Driscoll and the church of Mars Hill. It seems that Mark is at the forefront of chasing edges in defiance of “tradition” specifically in the ministry of the Christian pastorate and Christ’s church.
Driscoll in particular is in opposition to what he sees as the “feminization of the Church” in modeling a “mealy mouthed Jesus.” Driscoll hammers home his sermon messages with racy humor and foul mouthed diatribes in order to appeal to folks (specifically young men) in one of the most liberal cities in the United States, Seattle. One of the few absolutes about Christian decorum and modesty that Driscoll seems to embrace is the one contained in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23:
For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
There has been a rush by many younger conservative Southern Baptists (in what Geoff [by Dr. McKinnon] has suggested are the “third generation of the Conservative Resurgence” pastors and leaders) towards a “hard core” rejection of “traditional” Southern Baptist interpretation of ecclesiology. Most notably, much of this “third generation” embraces “non-traditional” methodology such as contemporary worship services, projection overheads versus hymnbooks, blue jeans rather than suits, popcorn or snacks during worship services, exclusive use of ‘topical’ or ‘narrative’ “talks” rather than expository sermons, praise bands rather than worship choirs, etc., in often a rigorous opposition to their more “traditional” counterparts found in much of Southern Baptist life. If numbers of people are any guide to pragmatic achievement, then Driscoll and others like him have found the secret formula of unmitigated success – at least in their ministry fields. “Who Would Jesus Smack Down” seems then to be the up and coming trend – Driscoll is merely putting into practice the logical conclusion of a paradigm that desires to reach the current post-modern, hip-hop, “me” generation using any and all means necessary to reach a “justifiable” end. He certainly wears his “non-conformity” clothes quite well. Or does he? And for what good?
This is where Bart’s quotes are appropriate (you knew I was coming to that, right?) The finer points of the Scriptural message (IMHO) has often in these contemporary “non-traditional” contextualization settings been watered down to total insignificance. Lost in the shuffle of the “smack down” (which has all the semblance of a World Wide Wrestling Federation meet) is this trait of Christianity proposed by the Scripture for her ministers: humility.
“The Lord’s curse is on the house of the wicked,
but he blesses the dwelling of the righteous.
Toward the scorners he is scornful,
but to the humble he gives favor.
The wise will inherit honor,
but fools get disgrace.” – Proverbs 3:33-35 ESV
“So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” – 1 Peter 5:1-5 ESV
As with most ideas, there is a duality to “humility”, and that is “pride” and “arrogance”. To flaunt non-conformity to the point of excess IS arrogant. To wear casualness to an extreme breeds in many ways contempt for all things non-casual (of course the converse is true as well – but blogs are usually not inhabited by the more traditional around us). From the lips of many “Casual Christians” the well spring of contempt are often non-ceasing toward the more “traditional” minded within our midst. These epithets are often hurled at the “elders” of the more mature generation who for some reason do not understand the “me” generation of today – as if there were any generation among the many of human history that have not been a “me” generation. What is supposed by these younger rascals is that “traditional” ways are “old” ways that no longer are suitable in reaching people for Christ. What our more mature set would tell us (if we would listen closely) is that “there is nothing new under the sun” and that the souls that God redeems are done so no matter what one places on the hook to attract the fish who bite. Another tidbit: it does matter what bait is placed on the end of the hook – stink bait is just plain stinky as unscriptural methods are just plain unscriptural (HT Geoff). I have found that people no matter their cultural baggage or background innately desire to see the true reality – the reality of the changed humble heart that Christ creates as a “new creation” inside His followers. Along with this new heart springs a desire to belong, to begin and have coveted relationships that are loving and consistent that are only found among the true believers of Christ’s Body, His church. Without that distinction there is ultimately no difference between those who claim the “new birth” and those who are condemned without Christ.
“Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ!— assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.” Ephesians 4:17-24 ESV
To approach God casually and flippantly is anathema. Moses was charged before the burning bush, “Take off your sandals – you are on holy ground.” Moses could not approach Holiness on the terms that his culture deemed acceptable and “spot on.” He approached God in a sense a reverence, awe, and majesty, throwing off his sandals and then bowing down on the ground in humility before God – a point that seems to be remiss these days of loud worship music, nose rings, and a casual indifference to dress or decorum in many modern worship services today. This is especially egregious if the minister splats out language that is neither humble nor endearing to God or the hearers of the Word.
Let me be very clear what I am NOT saying: I enjoy worship “praise” music that is biblically honoring. My church currently introduces at least one of them into our worship service every Sunday. My church has a keyboard, and we have invited praise bands on occasion into the sanctuary. We have an overhead so that we can display hymns or choruses so that people are not putting their nose into a hymnbook (most people know not how to read music anyway). Our worship services are planned in a prayerful attitude that in the end Christ’s church will worship and glorify God, and that those who come will be encouraged and challenged by His Spirit. We do these things humbly, not arrogantly or flippantly, in and by the Spirit of Christ.
I too had a Pastor in my formative years who meant much to me, and as a result is my model for ministry. His name is Ernie Cecil, and he is the former pastor of my boyhood church, Glenwood Baptist in Tulsa Oklahoma (and if he knew about this part of my post he would D-I-E). He was not a scholar necessarily – nobody invited him to speak about the latest craze, or to introduce any new evangelization methodology. He was a Pastor who slugged it out in the trenches, thick and thin, in my home church for over two decades – and in all of that I never heard him utter a “gutter” word (even though dealing with me he probably had a cause to!). He lead people to Christ, he discipled them, he loved them, and he was their undershepherd who humbly always lead them to the True Shepherd – and he loved doing it because he loved Jesus! He knew when to wear blue jeans, and when not to. The annuls of heaven are filled with his kind – and thankfully they are never found on the pages of the New York Times.



Rob
Thank you for this post. I know the writers of both IMPACT and Today have debated each other vigorously, but allow me this one time to affirm you vigorously in what you wrote. You said,
‘What is supposed by these younger rascals is that “traditional” ways are “old” ways that no longer are suitable in reaching people for Christ. What our more mature set would tell us (if we would listen closely) is that “there is nothing new under the sun” and that the souls that God redeems are done so no matter what one places on the hook to attract the fish who bite.’
I am forty. I don’t know where I fit in the young verses the old debate, but I have found your statement to be oh so true. I believe it was Jim Bakker who said during his PTL reign that if we are to be good fishers of men, “you better have good bait.” There truly is nothing new under the sun. What we can learn from those who have gone on before us (both good and bad) can help us in guiding what is being entrusted to our care. Times may have changed, but the strategy of our enemy has run in cycles throughout the course of human history. He has not come up with anything new.
Again, though we have had our differences, I do find very little if nothing in this post to be in disagreement. Thank you.
Rob,
Amen! Excellent article. You probably wont be invited to speak about this at the next Starbucks Missional Innovation Conference for Young Studs meeting, though!
From a 47 year old, rock and roller, hillbilly, who loves good, worshipful, praise music, and who hates wearing ties, this is good stuff. Your post I mean.
Thanks. It’s like you were in my head.
David
Wow Rob, I believe you’re out to smack the smackdown:)
* For disclosure, I grew up in a small traditional SB church and now pastor a small traditional SB church like the one I grew up in. I like hymns. I like Fanny Crosby. I like sweet tea.
My concern with the ecclesiology espoused by some today has to do with some of the substance and not its garb. I think the substance of the extra biblical terminology of “church ordinance” might not be exegetically based in ecclesiology like the substance of the extra biblical terminology of “covenant of grace” is not, I think, exegetically based in soteriology.
My view of 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 is that if one takes that section to justify “attracting” the lost, then I think one has missed its meaning. I think it has to do with not putting up unnecessary barriers to the gospel and is not about “how to get’em” on Sunday mornings.
God Bless,
Benji
Rob,
I’m not sure if this post is supposed to be about Bart Barber, Mark Driscoll, or something else. I will limit my comments about Bart and Mark here to say, I embrace both as my brothers in Christ, appreciate much of what each has to contribute for the kingdom of God, and agree with neither on 100% of what they do and say.
The main point I get out of your post is the need for humility. On this, I do agree 100%. However, I think the temptation to pride and arrogance is just as prevalent on both “sides of the fence”: traditional and non-traditional. Every one of us should strive to be as faithful as we know how to the Word of God, do the best we can to not let merely cultural trappings get in the way of reaching lost souls for Christ, and making disciples, and treat our fellow servants with love and respect.
In the holy temple God is building up down through the centuries, which is the Church, there are living stones of every size and shape, some more “traditional” and some less so. But we all are being built together as part of the same temple.
Rob,
Enjoyed your post. I’m traditional, but open to many of the new methods. I also believe the SBC is very open to these new, creative approaches to outreach.
The problem lies in when those methods may go too far. We should be able to have reasonable discussions about them.
Sometimes I see the more innovative speak and act in such a condescending way toward those who have gone before. Some present themselves as though they are the first generation since the time of Christ to get it right. Every generation has their problems with hypocrisy and arrogance, not just the older generation. We are all susceptible.
It should also be remembered that the great new ideas of today, will one day soon be considered old and boring. In some ways, the more contemporary you are, the sooner you will become dated. Methods and terminology change, but the truth of the gospel is always the same.
Your request for humility should be heard by us all.
David R. Brumbelow
Rob,
I agree that there is nothing new under the sun. What the “non-traditional” people like, is really just a fresh layer of paint over an old rotten wall. God doesn’t care if it’s loud or soft music, whether it’s read from a book, bulletin, or wall. I’m sure he doesn’t care if it’s blue jeans or black slacks. And any additional metal in ones face is surely no test for who he will fellowship with. None of these things are new or different; but we have a tendency to make them more important than they actually are.
I do not think that the “non-traditional” people are trying to be rebels or trying to prove a point. They’re just realizing that God doesn’t care about meaningless things, and so, we should follow his example. Moses may have taken his sandals off for God, but God came and washed our feet.
I’m glad that you had a pastor who influenced your life in a positive way, whether or not he appeared in the NYT, went to Sunday service in a three-piece suit, or was a 7-day-a-week farmer that never left his small town. I can assure you, paradise is filled with all kinds.
God Speed,
Lew
P.S. On a “slightly humorous” note, you seem to like using “quotes” in this “post” – so “I” thought “you” might like this “site” – http://www.unnecessaryquotes.com/
Rob,
I thought I should mention that I saw the post. When somebody says something nice about me, I’ve found it helpful to say very little in reply, lest I disprove them.
Robin,
Thank you for your kind comments. Certainly we have had our disagreements, but I hope that we have never been disagreeable. I do remember Jim Bakker making those comments – of course his “bait” was the prosperity gospel – which he has been on again, off again, on again. Alas that is another post for another time.
David (volfann),
You and I both are the proof that you don’t have to be “young” to enjoy those things that honor our Lord without qualification. By the way, I am forty-five – and Geoff likes to add that I am a “young” 45 with four children who are 14, 4, 3, and 4 months. Anybody care to do the math on that?
Benjii,
Quite right – what is important is the “substance” of what is offered not the window dressing. We live in a culture that is all about symbolism over substance – I gather that is what many who would propound a more “non-traditional” methodology are attempting to display – the argument is that they can be “casual” and still be observant to the substance. I do not necessarily disagree with the premise – but am certainly laying down what I see are some (in my mind) disturbing trends among some evangelicals.
David Rogers,
You have the main point of the post. The rest is just dressing to get you there (as well as affirm some in their views, and disagree with others on theirs) I did note that pride is displayed on all sides of the fence – but I find often these days that one side is getting all the press (literally), so I dealt with primarily the New York Times article vis-a-vis Bart’s article on his blog.
David B. (it seems I am bringing out the Davids today!)
Thank you for your kind words. Indeed, what you say is the truth.
Bart,
Thanks for stopping by. I think you are mainly “kind” despite our disagreements on some minor issues. Your quotes I find come to mind for some reason – I really do not know if that is good or bad
Rob
Most so-called contemporary music is nothing but bringing the world into the church to attract people. The Result, a congregation of lost worldly religious people.
Lew, Lew, Lew,
Somehow I knew Lew that you would pipe in – and was surprised when you did not – I missed you. Then I realized that your statement needed to be “approved” (there is a “unnecessary” quote there for you!) – so I went in and approved it.
Tell me this – if it “does not matter” (those pesky quotations again) why did Abel’s sacrifice get accepted when Cain’s sacrifice did not? If it did not matter, why did Uzzah die when he reached out to steady the Ark of the Covenant? If it did not truly matter, why did Ananias and Sapphira die? If it did not matter at all, why did Paul use an entire chapter in 1 Corinthians to instruct the church of Corinth correct worship practices, including the proper use of the Lord’s Supper (Chapter 11 – read it sometime). There happens to be a “correct” way and a “wrong” (shucks I just “keep” on doing it) way of doing things. The proper question would be in all things, “Does this bring glory to God, or only to myself.”
By the way – if it does not “truly matter” why do you always have a correcting word to say about traditional Baptist ecclisiology? It seems I recall that in the “Much Ado” thread you referred it to “dung.” If it does not matter, what is the dif?
Rob
Rob,
I do like reading everything you post, both here and on our State’s baptist list. Many who move into the more contemporary realm often see it as utilitarian. It is useful to attract the masses. In doing so, they often bash the more traditional churches in order that they might say that God is doing a new thing. My former Pastor, who is now retired yet very active in our state convention, would probably walk out of our worship service. However, I am OK with that. I am thankful for the many churches who hold on to their traditions and hymnals yet many would criticize them for doing so. Likewise, it is true that many who hold to the traditions of our fathers would say that we have missed the mark. Power chords, distortion, and amplification, along with blue jeans, are common in our church. But God forbid that I would be bold enough to criticize churches where pressed suits and hymns are the norm.
I am not convinced that Moses’ sandals were a cultural barrier that hindered him from expressing true worship. Neither is one’s cultural expression of musical praise to God, whether it be with bamboo sticks in the interior of China or a Fender Telecaster in Imperial, MO.
Rob,
First, let me say, the “quote” post-script was meant to alleviate stress, not cause offense. I do apologize, brother.
Second, and to the point, what does Abel, Cain, Uzzah, Annas, and Sapphira have to do with blue jeans, hymnals, and body jewelry? I never once implied that nothing matters. Nor did I even say “it does not matter”. I said that the non-traditionalist are not concerned about the things that God is not concerned with.
Show me in Scripture what the “correct” clothes are to wear to Sunday morning services, the “correct way” to sing songs, the “correct” type of Christian music to play, the “correct” body jewelry to have. If these are not prescribed (or even described) in Scripture, then surely God is not concerned about them.
God Speed,
Lew
Shucks, Scott, you outed me (about the MoBaptist list and all).
I guess what I am attempting to point out here (and David Rogers it seems is confused on this point as well – at least that is my perception of his response) is that the key Christian worship is “humility” – humility toward God, humility toward one another, humility as a Shepherd to the flock, choosing the proper words and decorum that both acceptable and glorifies God and edifies the flock. I expressed an opinion that I don’t believe that in it’s current format that Mars Hill is doing that. They are an extreme example – yet taking the paradigm to it’s most logical conclusion, Mars Hill will be the result. The post here is a reminder of WHOM we worship. We don’t worship the format – we worship the King of Kings. How does he desire we express our worship of Him – is He just mute on everything that worship should contain – how we should conduct ourselves, how we express ourselves, what our conduct and decorum shall be? I believe that the N.T. does give us an outline of what is proper and right in worship. There are some who want to bring what they feel comfortable with in bringing, while God asks to bring what most pleases Him. Ultimately the question we should ask is, “What will bring God glory?” – regardless if we wear blue jeans or pressed suits (my suits are rarely pressed – I just put them in that little laundry bag for thirty minutes – they smell nice at least every Sunday).
The question is left for you to answer – for what reason did God ask Moses to remove his sandals for?
Rob
Further point Scott….
The early critics of utilitarianism (“Utilitarianism” being a philosophical school mainly dealing with ethics “For the greater good” “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one” (Spock – “The Wrath of Khan”) with “the ends justify the means”- with the early philosophical proponents being Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill) called the system “subversive” – because a otherwise immoral means could be justified good as long as the end is good. Of course Utilitarianism is based primarily on a metaphysical premise of pure skepticism “Does God exist” (an early proponent of a system of utility was David Hume). Is it not truly wonderful then that Christians are using a philosophy where “the end justifies the means.”
Rob
Wow. Broad brush strokes and blanket statements.
First, those of us who diverge from the ways of Baptist tradition are merely rebellions rascals.
Now I learn (via Dr. Foltz) is that my congregation, among others, is merely a bunch of worldly religious people.
Hmmm …. I wasn’t going to comment. But now I feel compelled.
Rob, I think it is a mistake to assume that men of God who choose a different path (i.e. a new tradition) do so because of a spirit of rebellion against the past … or against anything, for that matter. Like Dr. McKinnon said so well, we have a new generation which views the book as sacred – not all of the trappings of any traditionalism. That is their point. That is our point.
Secondly, I think it is a mistake to view all things through a lens of ethnocentrism (or religio-centrism, Baptist-centrism … whatever fits). Your more traditionalist statements seem to do just that. My impression, when I first read your post (especially with your emphasis upon biblical behavior -vs- non-biblical) was that you automatically assume that your behaviors and the standards of tradition are, by default, biblical. Therefore, any deviations (I’m talking about substance, not style … which is what you seemed to primarily address – i.e. clothing, music style, etc…) are, by default, non-biblical. I vehemently assert that this is a patently false juxtaposition. It is oh-so-easy to establish one’s own position as biblical (in our own minds) and in so doing question the biblicity of another’s.
I have worshiped with the people of God in a Native American church in Montana (with shakers and tom-toms), in a church in Ukraine (with stuffy formality – but real wine during communion), on the great savanna in Kenya (where the women truly “broke it down” and the men jumped up and down), and on a mountain top in Peru (with stringed instruments and native drums). In every case the people worshiped the Lord in Spirit and truth. No suits. No ties. No pulpits. No hymnals. But lots of passion and lots of Jesus. Should they, too, be considered casual and flippant? I don’t think so.
McKinnon did not assert anything in his post that can be misconstrued as prideful. He was talking about quiet, faithful, serving, third-generation conservative pastors who are getting the work done … most of them anonymously. He is most certainly NOT talking about the celebrities, blowhards, and self-aggrandizing crowd that makes news headlines and gets invited to speak here and there. I think it is quite a mistake to confuse the two.
I would swim counter to the sentiments expressed here by saying that I have never, ever … and I mean not ONCE … experienced arrogance or haughtiness from a young pastor that I would consider (per Dr. McKinnon’s description) a third generation conservative pastor. Only quiet servants who minister on IN SPITE OF the other more traditional pastors around them who cast aspersions, lay down judgments, and make their ministries (in general) more difficult.
But I have been rejected, made outcast, lied about, written about, and been the subject of letter campaigns and hate mail by good, Bible-loving, traditional Southern Baptist pastors. Indeed, from most I have not received the right hand of Baptist fellowship, but merely a single metaphorical finger from that hand.
So, in a lot of ways much of your post and my experience don’t compute.
The purpose of McKinnon’s post (and mine, for that matter) was not to disparage the viewpoints and practices that are different from our own (i.e. traditional). It was simply to make our viewpoints better understood.
I love you, my brother. But I do think your analogy between changing cultural practices in worship and Moses taking his sandals off is a bit of a stretch.
God does not dwell at the church building. He dwells within me and you. We honor him by our holiness, not by the color of our pants,the absence or presence of tattoos and piercings, or the types (or volume) of instruments being played. We must always be careful in assuming that our own way is the right way and, therefore, anything different must be inherently wrong.
And I sure hope that arrogance is not something that anyone has ever experience from me.
I love everybody.
To Lew … well said.
“and David Rogers it seems is confused on this point as well”
Rob,
Just curious to know what you think I might be confused about. It does seem, by your response to my comment, that I was right about the main point being humility.
Perhaps the confusion has to do with Mars Hill. I am not intimately familiar, just vaguely, with Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill. Is there something specific about them I should know that would indicate they are not showing humility, to such a degree that it needs to be publicly singled out?
Lew,
My “quote” back at you was not intended to share my displeasure – just a continuation of your humor. Sorry I did not make that clear.
All of the examples I proffered had to deal with worship. In each instance, the worshiper got it wrong – and it did matter to God.
I do believe that worship should be orderly – see 1 Corinthians 14 – and that there are many elements of worship that will make it orderly – see same chapter.
Now read all that I said – I do not believe that ALL non-traditional activity is WRONG (Geoff – my first response bro to you – I will have further comments in another post). I had an entire paragraph that looked like this:
“Let me be very clear what I am NOT saying: I enjoy worship “praise” music that is biblically honoring. My church currently introduces at least one of them into our worship service every Sunday. My church has a keyboard, and we have invited praise bands on occasion into the sanctuary. We have an overhead so that we can display hymns or choruses so that people are not putting their nose into a hymnbook (most people know not how to read music anyway). Our worship services are planned in a prayerful attitude that in the end Christ’s church will worship and glorify God, and that those who come will be encouraged and challenged by His Spirit. We do these things humbly, not arrogantly or flippantly, in and by the Spirit of Christ.”
I believe that the core issue of true worship is humility – not the clothes your wearing (at least wear something) or the songs you sing (appropriately voicing praise to God, or encouraging the flock of God and that you understand the message over the instrumentation) but the spirit it is brought = “it is not about me, it is about Him.” Again, the example brought here in the article is Mars Hill. They are the extreme, would you not agree?
Rob
Geoff – I will try to answer you in total – you deserve such.
1)No, I don’t believe that your church is “doing it wrong” – as for as Paul’s comments I disagreed with them – I just had not gotten around to say so yet.
2)To me when I said the term “rascal” it was a term-of-endearment like “you ole rascal you” – it definitely was not intended to offend you. Here is the quote in context:
“What is supposed by these younger rascals is that “traditional” ways are “old” ways that no longer are suitable in reaching people for Christ. What our more mature set would tell us (if we would listen closely) is that “there is nothing new under the sun” and that the souls that God redeems are done so no matter what one places on the hook to attract the fish who bite.”
Perhaps I should have said, “What is supposed by some of these…” rather than a universal qualifier. I certainly would not be trying to pigeon hole all of these folks into the held belief that “…the old ways that no longer are suitable in reaching people for Christ.” I do hold however that this belief is held by many in this category – I have heard it from their lips, and have seen them type it out on their keyboards. The arrogance of course does run both ways. Perhaps my next post will attempt to even out the arrogance on both sides of the fence – today it hits you – tomorrow it hits – someone else.
In other words I do not make the assumption that all who would be “contemporary” would be “arrogant.” God forbid. I do believe that for many, “traditional” ecclisiology is tied to the past, not the present and so therefore those who still practice and worship and preach in such a model are backward thinking. That is where my “there is nothing new under the sun” comes in.
I have worshiped with believers all around the world too, whom have utilize all sorts of methods that derive themselves from their culture and upbringing – some of the best and heartfelt singing in worship I have been a part of was in Belize where they had no instruments at all. All of them did so in reverence and humility in however loud or soft they brought it. It is “make a joyful noise” is it not? It is “with clanging cymbals” is it not? I have no issue with that at all. My issue is found vis-a-vis Mars Hill.
3)I do not believe my worship behaviors are “universal” – hence I have worshiped freely with believers from all over the world. What I do believe is that there is a “reverence” that for the life of me I do not see when one cannot even think or even hear the message of the song, or when the Man of God speaks with a racy tongue. In contrast, a worshiper who merely sings “Amazing Grace” by route with no feeling or passion at all lacks the same type of reverence.
4)I did not say about Dr. McKinnon or yourself a wit or thing about being “prideful.” It was merely “a continuation of a theme” a connection with something that had been previously posted. If I did not make that clear (obviously I did not) – I seek forgiveness.
5)I love you too brother. I know that many have brought ridicule and scorn on you and your work. You have received the “right foot of fellowship” from some of the brethren. You know me man – if I was voting, I would have voted you in. You know that. Otherwise, how can we contribute together in one accord here in this place? No, my concerns primarily as part of this posting are merely given as a warning. There is a necessary balance in the work of God. As we are not to bring into our bodies as the Temple of God anything that would cause it harm, we bring to our Lord all that would give Him glory! In reverence, in fear, in awe! If you do not see that in the story of the burning bush, oh well! I can do nothing to convince you.
I do not believe we are talking around each other. We just have different color of pants on
Your servant,
Rob
I hear you, man. I knew what you meant by the rascal thing. I liked it. (Believe me, I’ve been called much worse by Baptist pastors around here.) It’s just that some have the ability to take your thoughtful post and add a few indicting blanket statements. It stirred me up just a bit.
Different pants. I like that, too. My pants are blue jeans. On Sundays, too.
Nothing but love for ya!
Still waiting for my invitation to the Starbucks Missional Innovation Conference for Young Studs Meeting. Sigh…
Geoff
Rob,
So I went back and read your post a little more carefully, and also went to the links on Bart’s post about his former pastor, and the NYT article (which, BTW, I had to change, since the link was entered in wrong).
It looks like maybe the big problem you see with Driscoll is the supposed “racy humor” and “foul-mouthed diatribes.” I had been aware of Driscoll’s reputation as the “cussing pastor,” and read the comment in the NYT article Driscoll gave in response to the question that was asked by someone in his congregation (which seemed totally inappropriate to me). However, I have also heard that Driscoll has repented for his past lack of discretion in his use of language, and has committed to no longer resort to such. I’m not sure if the quoted comment was after or before his new stance.
In any case, if the point of this post is about using profanity in the pulpit, I am in agreement with you. I don’t believe it is a good thing. However, I am also willing to grant forgiveness to someone who recognizes this is wrong, and quits doing it.
If the real point here is something else, though, it would help me if you could show a particular quote, or some other piece of evidence, that would help me evaluate better what it is that rubs you the wrong way about Driscoll and Mars Hill. I’m not saying you are wrong, just that I may not have yet seen the same things you have seen that have led you to take the position you take on this.
Geoff,
Your comment #15 was excellent!
I am still trying to figure out why some bloggers (Rob, I’m not thinking of you here, but the comment stream got me thinking) are so harsh in their criticisms of Mark Driscoll. One blogger seems to write a new Driscoll bashing post about every other day. If the cussing thing is true, I would be bothered by that. But he is a young pastor reaching out to unbelievers in one of America’s most pagan areas. Does he have to act like a Bible Belt Southern Baptist to minister faithfully?
I can’t help but think there is a cultural component in all this. It reminds me of the furor some have raised over FTME’s testimony to Muslims.
I think there are a lot of people who see the culture of the South, the traditional church culture as inherently biblical. Anything that varies from that is considered unbiblical and is rejected.
I am not sure I would want to sit under the ministry of Mark Driscoll. But I am glad he is reaching people in Seattle who would NEVER respond to a old fogey like me!
David,
I think you hit on a most of the things I am thinking. Since I have never met Mark, been in his church, or seen any of these things personally I am merely left to comment upon what others report. I share then my “commentary” which I believe is Biblically oriented based upon some of the things that have been written, and the role models I have been given in my life. I will be the first one to say that yes I have blinders on that are tainted by my life experiences, and my reading of Scripture. It is that lens that I see things. However, I must say my reading of 1 Peter 5 models not a “mealy mouthed Jesus” but a strong, yet tender, compassionate shepherd. Ephesians I pray that indeed my brother (I have no doubt that he is) has seen the necessity of humility and less vulgarity. The NYT article is January 2009 – and I have heard of his confession and repentance for months. The foil of the article is the “cariculture” of the NYT article with “avoid this” as the message. “Humility is the key to worship” is the theme of the piece. Thank you for correcting the link.
Rob
Ed Stetzer addressed Driscoll’s “cussing pastor” phase here:
http://blogs.lifeway.com/blog/edstetzer/2009/02/friday-is-for-friends-16.html
As he mentions, Pastor Driscoll has repented and that should be the end of it for all of us. No more “foul mouth” references needed. I’ve grown tired of Christians in general and Baptists specifically taking issue with Mark Driscoll. He’s not a SB, although admittedly, he has an impact through the Acts 29 network. However, those who participate in his network do so through no solicitation from him and do so voluntarily.
Mars Hill is highly successful at making disciples in a city with more cats than Christians. People previously hostile toward Christianity embrace Christ as savior and follow Him wholeheartedly. Paradigms of the south are not infallible nor always transferable to other parts of the country.
How about we praise God for the work Mark Driscoll does and focus on our mission fields with the same passion for Christ’s glory as he has. Maybe there would be less time for criticism.
Dave,
Some of my comments in #23 are appropriate in answering you. IF (the point has been placed into contention, so we will place it as a hypothetical) the “image” that the Pastor is affirming in his position (or is, by application perpetuating in the worship service) is a “false” image of Christ (His love, His compassion, His humility) then that is a violation of the second commandment – frankly it could be in any “type” of service – I was commenting upon one type because of it’s popularity.
Rob
Rob,
I by no means want to become a Mark Driscoll apologist, however, he has become such a polarizing figure to so many, I feel he gets blamed for things he never said or implications are drawn from his statements that were never intended. Your comment in #23 serves as an example. While you correctly point out that the bible never makes Jesus look “mealy mouthed”, Driscoll never made that statement. He says the church has done this, not the bible. One listen to a Driscoll sermon and you will know of his fidelity to God’s word. While I think he does go over the top in relating to his culture there, he always looks to remain biblically faithful. Where he goes over the top, he has shown an ability to repent……which makes him just like all of us.
Is it possible that phrases like traditional and non-traditional or contemporary are not helpful? When we stop and think about it, traditional is nothing but outdated contemporary or contemporary with the wrong culture. I think good old fashioned biblical and non-biblical would be better to to assess a church’s standing with culture.
One thing about Driscoll. It was not just the cussing thing that had some stirred up. And, it was not that he preached and taught about sex. When we get to that part of the Bible, then we ought to teach and preach on this subject. But, what stirred some up was that Driscoll goes into details in a Springer style approach…like telling married couples to prayerfully consider an-l sex, or sodomy. And, he speaks openly and graphically about masterb-tion, even quoting a passage in Proverbs for humor, which states that what you do with your hand, do it with all your might. This kind of crude, vulgar humor and open talk about an-l sex, or sodomy, is what some are so upset with him about….as well as his reputation for cussing in the pulpit…which many of you say that he has repented of.
Also, I believe that it was his Church that had a New Years Party where people were told to bring their ID because booze would be served, and the women were told to dress in red? I believe and dress “hot?” I think, and be ready to boogie and party, or something like that.
That’s the problem that some have with Driscoll…just to be fair to those who are not liking Driscoll being held up as an example of what a Pastor and a Church ought to be.
David
Geoff,
.
Of the cultural worship styles you list in comment 15, you may be surprised to know that the only one I would have a serious problem with is fermented wine for the Lord’s Supper. I have seen arrogance, not with all, but with some of the younger guys. I still maintain that hypocrisy and arrogance infect all generations, whether young or old. As far as you’re concerned, I think I would love to worship in your church any Sunday. No problem with your blue jeans, as long as you don’t wear shorts
I know very little about Mark Driscoll, but if what David (volfan007) said (comment #28) is true, then I have big problems with him. I think we can find contemporary preachers today that do all the good things he’s doing, without the bad.
As far as drinking, you might want to see the new alcohol study just out today and David Worley’s blog.
David R. Brumbelow
Geoff,
I meant the last two paragraphs of my comment #29 to be general statements; not directed at you.
David R. Brumbelow
David W.,
Maybe this will lump me into the “Driscoll apologist” category (I really don’t intend to be, though), but from what I can tell, much of what is said of the guy is based as much on hearsay as fact. As I’ve learned over the past several years, you’ve gotta do some digging on your own when it comes to these things.
For example, the “Red Hot Bash”. When you read the description on the event’s website and see photos, it sure doesn’t turn out to be as racy as people have been led to believe. The name apparently comes from the band that plays, people are encouraged to wear the color red, and yes, a champagne bar is available… it opens at 11:30 so people can do their midnight toasts.
And, regarding some of the advice he offers? Given the people Mars Hill is reaching and the liberal nature of the culture from which many of these converts come, isn’t it expected that he would have some tough questions asked of him (certainly some that would make any pastor squirm)? Seriously, I think you should check out his blog sometime and see how he responds to this kind of thing.
Anyway, again, don’t get me wrong. I don’t intend to be a Driscoll apologist, and I’m certainly not saying he ought to be held up as a model pastor. It’s just that there’s a lot of gossip and hearsay that seem to exaggerate the truth on some of these matters.
John,
I have checked out his website, and I have heard direct quotes about what I wrote. It’s true. It’s disturbing.
I have no doubt that Mark Driscoll loves the Lord. I appreciate his heart for the lost and Bible teaching. I thank God for all the good that his Church does. But, he has gone overboard on some of this…way, way beyond where he should be….especially if he’s gonna be invited to speak at conferences and be held up as a model for younger Pastors.
Do you agree?
David
David,
Do I agree that Pastor Driscoll has gone overboard on some things?
Obviously, I disagree with some things he has said. And I certainly question the wisdom of tackling some questions so publicly. But based on what I see coming direct from him or from his church, I also see that some of these things have been blown way out of proportion.
Do I agree that he should be held up as a model pastor?
I would answer, should anyone? Jesus is our standard, and no human can measure up.
Anyway, you’ve noted that Pastor Driscoll has an incredible heart for the lost. You’ve noted that he has led his church to reach people in cultures most other churches could not even begin to penetrate. And of course, you’ve noted that you strongly disagree with some of the things he has said and done.
My point? As you would do with anything, you take the good and throw out the bad. If he’s invited to a conference, or held out as a model pastor for all the good, so be it. Surely born-again believers, indwelt with God’s Holy Spirit, have enough discernment to know what’s worth keeping and what needs to be thrown out.
SINCE A PASTOR IS NOT TO BE A NOVICE, BUT IS TO STUDY THE WORD, HE SHOULD BE ABLE BY THE DISCERNMENT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, TO KNOW WHAT IS GOOD AND WHAT IS BAD.
Paul told Timothy to follow him as He followed Christ. This is why A man should be an assistant under a pastor, before he pastors.
Darby,
The reason I used “traditional” and “non-traditional” was to create a harbor of discussion around the issues that the post attempts to set before us, so the terms were used intentionally on my part. Methodology is not necessarily “good” or “bad” “biblical” or “non-biblical” with certain exceptions. For example, attracting those hooked by pornography into the front door of the church by showing an porno I think everybody could agree with and say, “yes – that method is inappropriate and un-biblical.” Singing worship praise hymns on projectors and wearing blue jeans instead of suits is merely a “method” that I would say is not biblical or un-biblical. No I can comment on what I perceive are un-biblical attitudes among a few, or the loudness of the music without any perceived worshipful qualities (“praising God”) but merely used to emotionally lift up the hearer (“serving self”) is in of itself un-biblical. In the same regard to remain “traditionally” comfortable, worshiping without passion, purpose, or meaning is just as a dreadful condition as worshiping for self – and in fact they are the same thing if you think about it.
I think in the call of “baiting the hook” in a cultural way, some have forgotten the call of Ephesians 4 – “PUT OFF THE OLD SELF.” Being casual in the world for many is a form of rebellion, to be hip, to be cool – call everybody by their first name (even if you do not know them), paint your hair, get a nose or tongue ring, get a tattoo, live with your boy or girlfriend, be free! Putting on Christ means to take off the old clothes, the worldly way of doing things, to be different, to be “in the world but not of it”. That may not mean to wear your dad’s pants, or do church with Gregorian chants. But it means SOMETHING besides catering to the whims of the world! Again I ask the question: What difference do they see in you if you have Christ in you if you seem to be the same as them?
Jeff,
I understand that the piece “seems” to pile drive on Mark. Certainly some of the antics here as described have caused me to pause in describing them. The purpose for me was “compare and contrast.” A minor theme in this piece was the difference between who is “popular” and who is not – what is considered “successful” these days in the Evangelical “business.” Mark Driscoll is one who receives a lot of press. What does he do to gain all the notoriety and attention? The “mealy mouthed” quote was directed to the “church” in which Mark derides the message that the “traditional” methodology has imposed. His racy comments (which as far as I can see he made) – would they have come from say Paul, or Peter? Was the culture they lived in any more antagonistic to the message of Christ than ours is? If not, how and in what matter did they contextualize the message? We read Paul contextualizing the message to the Stoic and Epicurean philosophers in Acts 17. Did he misconstrue the image of Christ by using pagan or obscene phrases when he bore witness of Jesus to them?
I believe that some of the “contemporary movement” falls into this trap. I mentioned in my piece that the only rules of decorum and methodology that some seem to embrace is 1 Corinthians 9 – but that is not the only set of verses that are found in the Bible. The only other justification is the system of utility – in order to save the many, we must often do things we find troubling, yet it is for the “greater good.” Christians have no business doing work that does not glorify God, and to keep within the parameters of Christian modesty, integrity, and humility.
Rob
Rob,
I admitted in #26 that I feel Driscoll goes over the top, no argument from me there. The problem I have it seems that we’ve deemed Mark Driscoll’s sins unacceptable while our own seem to be seen in a more favorable light. A lot of attention is paid to the amount of attention he gets. Would he get that attention if his church were running 100 in worship rather than 8000? For whatever reason, God has blessed his efforts, has grown Mars Hill, and disciples are being made in a city that cares more about wildlife than the human soul. I’m not saying we all should embrace Driscoll’s methodology, attitude, or brashness. I am saying for every sin Mark Driscoll so openly portrays, we have just as many the public never sees. We should embrace him as a brother rather than make him the subject of our righteous indignation.
We don’t have to agree with everything he does, but when we so openly criticize him it gives the appearance that our criticisms may not have righteous motivations, whether that’s the case or not. I simply don’t see the value of deriding a brother in this forum. I would think SBs would have learned their lesson about such practices by now.
Jeff,
You will not find in me the spirit of mitigating others sins while propagating others. God does not play a zero sum game so I will not either. We all must go before the throne of grace to seek deliverance from the depravity that remains in our lives, and will remain till the day that we are before Him. The sin of the “traditional” methodology is the assumption that what is done is wholly biblical, and nothing else is. I have seen people get up and walk out of a conference because the music was not played by piano and organ, saying the music was “irreverant.” My reply to them was, “you would not have done well in the catacombs – they had no instruments at all.”
You have misconstrued my purpose – it was not to call out Mark Driscoll or to judge him. How can I do that? It was to call us all to Holiness and Humility in our Worship. I “picked” on “contemporary” methodology – it has been in the news of late – the Driscoll NYT article is case in point. I used it. My commentary was again “compare and contrast” between some modern day “contemporary” pastors (and the rush of those young seminarians who wish to be so) who have a wide swath (Driscoll is the example) to some small church pastors who do not get the limelight, who may worship in a small space, who may not have a praise band, who may wear a suit they have worn in the same place for upteen zillion years, yet they are connected and working with the lost and the found and are doing so no matter their “method” of worship.
Let me lay down the gauntlet here – get beyond the argument of contemporary or traditional. “IT MATTERS NOT WHICH TYPE OF WORSHIP SERVICE ‘FLOATS YOUR BOAT.’ WHAT DOES MATTER IS YOUR AUTHENTICITY, YOUR INTEGRITY, YOUR HUMILITY, YOU WILLINGNESS TO BE REAL WITH OTHERS, YOUR LOVE FOR OTHERS AND ONE ANOTHER AND JESUS, WHICH IS ALL RELATED TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MASTER.” If that is the case, all these things being true, then I suspect no matter what “method” or “style” you employ, then God will be honored and “GOD WILL BLESS.” Shucks, I had a couple last Sunday who had their hair painted red all dressed in black. I welcomed them, I got into a conversation with them, I LOVED THEM, and they say they are coming back. All in a “traditional” church. “AUTHENTICITY’ to who we are in Christ is what draws others to see Him – IT IS NOT THE SUIT, THE BLUEJEANS, THE MUSIC, THE PROGRAMS, THE GIMMICKS, THE STYLE. It is not about us – it is about Him. May He have and receive the glory!
Rob
Rob,
Now that’s a statement I can agree with. Pursue God with a passion, be real in the process, and let others share your journey, and the type of worship service doesn’t even come into play. When Christ is at the center of our lives and He is the source of our joy, bluegrass praise choruses played with nothing but juice harps will get the job done. (Wow, did I just write that?)
Thank you for patiently explaining yourself and allowing me to dialogue with you.
Another couple of more thoughts all – and perhaps this would be a basis of a future post
Many these days want to emphasize God’s Love. They spew out God’s grace over God’s wrath – such is the “libertine” approach – and one *could* make an argument that this is the philosophy of some in the causual “contemporary” movement. I have emphasized in this piece through the example of the burning bush that “God is Holy” – and that both Holiness and Love as characteristics of God are deemed by Him co-equal, not one over the other.
Some of the signs of the empahsis of “Love” over “Holy” in some circles of young conservatism is the de-emphasis or out right rejection of the atonement doctrine of penal-substitution – some just outright reject the idea that God could be such a meanie as to subject His Son with what we deserved. Our own MoBaptist list has dealt with this very topic in recent days.
I would like to also add with my qualifiers in response to Jeff. I assumed it (but you really should not assume these days). A consistent and accurate teaching of the WORD is also necessary to be authentic. By it the Spirit speaks – and through it we are authentically “real.”
Rob
Rob,
Although there may be some circumstantial evidence to back up a certain trend regarding what you are saying, I believe it is not helpful to link the matters of contemporary/non-traditional vs. old-fashioned/traditional (which have to do, in my opinion, mostly with cultural considerations) with matters of love-libertine lifestyle vs. holiness-doctrinal purity (which have to do with transcultural, unchanging values). I believe it is possible to be more culturally “contemporary” and fall into a lack of holiness and doctrinal purity, and “traditional” and fall into a lack of holiness and doctrinal purity. I believe it is also possible to be “contemporary” and do a great job at holiness, doctrinal purity, and humility, as well as “traditional” and do a great job at holiness, doctrinal purity, and humility. Thus, it is best not to confuse the true issues at stake, but, rather, treat them as totally separate matters.
Methodoly does count. The priests were told to put the feathers on the right side of the altar. God’s Work must be done in God’s way under the filling of the Holy Spirit, who does not tell one person one thing, and another person, another thing. Prejudices must never enter the picture, nor preferences.
I was careful, David, to say *could*. Observation is the first step to identify data in order to affirm/discard a hypothesis. Admittedly this evidence I suggested has a casual and tenuous connection – the same type of connection that would would evolve from the statement, “the over-emphasis of holiness over love devolves into legalism” in which many have dived into – more so in “traditional” congregations than contemporary (at least from my view). I agree with your statement that either/or could occur no matter your flavor. At the moment any concrete convincing evidence one way or another is lacking (any want a D.Min. or Ph.D. project out there?) – yet a causal connection remains from my observation – admittedly it is anecdotal. I don’t believe I am confusing the two issues – just merely bringing up some more variables for further discussion.
Rob
Rob,
Okay. Well enough for now. It doesn’t look like we are really all that far apart on this. We can pick up the dialogue later whenever you want.