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Where Should the Church NOT Meet?
Posted by Roger Ferrell in Uncategorized
I have posted before about our church’s new outreach to a retail center about 20 minutes from our campus. We have been reaching out since the first of the year to the folks working at The Avenues Webb Gin. Our team has visited about twice a week, passed out hundreds of candy bags to shopkeepers, prayed with and encouraged dozens of hourly workers, and even had opportunity to lead in a memorial service for a store manager who passed away. It has been a fruitful, meaningful time for us, and has been a blessing to our team and from what I keep hearing, to those we serve.
Now we are preparing to hold our first worship service in the The Avenues. If it is well-attended, we will have a service once a month in that location as we continue our weekly outreach. April 6th, we will gather in the only space made available for rent in the area. We called 10 churches and asked to meet in their building on a Sunday night to no avail. We also looked into renting space elsewhere, but it was either too expensive or not available. So we are meeting outdoors on the patio at Winestyles, a wine boutique. The patio is a great setting, with room for about 50 folks and more room to spread out in the grassy area adjacent to the store. The price is right, at $300 for two hours. And the visibility is terrific, right on the end of the row of shops next to a busy street. It is easy to see, easy to find, and convenient for those we are trying to reach.
But I must confess, it is an odd setting for a church worship service. And given the recent flap about The Journey Church meeting at a brewery in Missouri, I am curious what our readers think about this choice of location. We are not, of course, serving wine, though we are serving cokes and m&m’s (caffeine and chocolate, the Christian’s drug of choice) and this is not a place associated with drunkenness. It is a classy setting where people go to a wine tasting or to pick up a bottle for a special occasion. And we will not be in the store, only on the patio. But it still assaults my Southern Baptist sensibilities a bit. I remember growing up in my teetotaler family and my mom being embarrassed to buy a bottle of beer at the grocery store to put in a bread recipe. She hid it in the back of the pantry till she was ready to use it. Winestyles is not a place I would usually frequent. But God has opened the door for us to gather people there to hear the gospel.
So that got me thinking: is there any place the church should not meet? What would be the criteria for that decision? What are some interesting places where churches you know have gathered for worship? And what do you think of our decision to have our first service at Winestyles?
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Our house church has met in a graveyard and on the patio of a Buddhist temple. The graveyard service was very Easter oriented. The Buddhist temple area overlooks the city and is just a good view and nobody was using the space. Our idea is the Jesus in Lord of Heaven and Earth whether sinners, ‘wine-bibbers’ Buddhists or others overlap space or not.
Perception is reality, so the goal is not to give folks even a reason to perceive and therefore, in their minds it’s not a reality. I would look elsewhere.
Roger,
If you and the church leadership have prayed this through and you are trusting the leadership of the Holy Spirit in this endeavor, I say go for it. To not do so would be disobedience.
I would like to ask though, are you considering the “wine boutique” for a meeting place because it is a “classy setting” and it would not carry as much of a stigma as a brewery?
Telos,
I like the graveyard idea. We may use that sometime. And I think it is cool to meet at a Buddhist temple and reclaim that space for the truth, the life and the way.
John,
That is the problem. There is no elsewhere. All the churches in the area turned us down. There are no libraries or other public meeting spaces. We cannot afford a full rental on a building nor do we want to maintain it.
We’ve looked everywhere. And we’ve explained that to the people we are serving. Winestyles was not our first choice, but it may be our only choice. And what are people perceiving by us meeting there? That we are all drunkards? I ask because if they came and see we are not serving alcohol but only using a convenient patio, then wouldn’t they know the truth?
Tony,
We really haven’t thought about the stigma or perception that much. We just needed to find a place to meet. I don’t think I would ever have a church meeting inside a brewery, unless the brewery management asked us to come do a bible study there or something like that. But the real issue to me is not the place, but whether or not we embrace the abuse of alcohol. If a church uses alcohol as a draw to its meetings, makes snide jokes about the glories of drunkeness, or flaunts the lifestyle that goes along with drinking, then I believe that is sin. But we just need a place to meet and this patio fits the bill. We’re not meeting there because it is Winestyles, but in spite of it.
If this was a restaurant with a patio, then I would not have a very interesting post today.
But none of those places would give us exclusive use or let us have a worship service at their place because they are open on Sundays at that time. The fact that this place closes early on Sundays means it is the only place available to us in The Avenues. Kind of ironic, isn’t it?
Isn’t there a principle we draw from Biblical teaching that it is inappropriate to even given the appearance of impropriety? If there is the possiblity that meeting here will not bring glory to God, then it is not the appropriate place to meet. In all things we do, we are to bring glory to Him. If this does not bring glory to Him, and I question that it does, then this is not the right door to go through. Don’t meet there because it is convenient and there is no othere place right now. There is still time for God to open the door to an appropriate place. If He wants this meeting to be held, then He will provide a place to meet. Put Him first, not the people you are trying to reach. Things will always come together when you put God first and let Him work out the details in His timing.
I know you know all this, but sometimes we get lost in the details when we are trying to do a good work for the Lord. We get caught up in meeting the needs of the people and forget it’s first about God. This is happening far too much lately in Christian life. You have an opportunity to set an example of how God can work when you put Him first, when you trust Him to provide despite how it looks from your perspective.
Please, set the example to the rest of the Christian community of what it means to really trust God and see Him glorified.
God Bless you and the work you are doing for Him and in His name.
Trish
Why don’t you start a house church and meet in homes?
While I think there is nothing wrong with the location you are using (I don’t buy into the “appearance of evil” in this type of situation), I’m curious if there is anyone in the area with a yard that you could use. There shouldn’t be any “appearance” to worry about if you meet at someone’s house.
Question: how many not-yet-Christians would consider a wine shop in a strip mall even remotely associated with evil??
Telos, great point. Furthermore, how many Christians should consider it “even remotely associated with evil”?
I’m quite familiar with the SBC’s position, but it is not a position that I see any logic in.
The 1Th 5:22 ‘appearance of evil’ is a KJV-ism that has been preached with passion more than precision. Note the following (including the NKJV):
NET © Stay away from every form of evil.
NIV © Avoid every kind of evil.
NASB © abstain from every form of evil.
NLT © Keep away from every kind of evil.
MSG © Throw out anything tainted with evil.
BBE © Keep from every form of evil.
NRSV © abstain from every form of evil.
NKJV © Abstain from every form of evil.
The context is about avoiding actually doing evil, not ‘appearing’ to do evil in the eyes of… whomever.
This passage certainly does not conflict with Jesus’ pattern of shocking the religiously controlling by demonstrating that God is not bound AND that God is seeking out people (not just waiting for them to come to his appropriate place of holiness).
God’s holiness invades places where even ‘wine-bibbers’ wander about, and they do so because the Son of Man, and those like him, bust through the gates (of Hades, not Hell btw) and rescue the perishing.
People gathering in a pleasant place with the top down to learn about God … sounds like light without a protective basket more than humanistic pandering.
In respect to Trish’s concern, Roger, just make sure the teaching is God centered and not man centered. What you are actually proclaiming is far more important than which place on Christ’s earth you are proclaiming it.
Press on!
The more time I have to defend why I’m holding a Bible study at a winery is less time available for the actual Bible study. The point is simply, is there a potential to cause a brother or sister to stumble? Let’s not ask the wrong question, i.e., what is wrong with this; rather let’s ask the right one—does this decision show God in all His magnificence, all His splendor, will this decision show others that we treasure Him above all else? Let us not be a sub-culture of the world, let us be counter cultural, striving with a radical abandonment to self to make His name great. I’m just not sure how His children display His radiance by studying His Word in a winery. Your very presence in the mind of many condones their choice to be a denizen of such activity. When someone is driving by and they see you go in, you won’t have the opportunity to say: “Well, see they’re closed on Sunday and we’re not going to drink and…..
Telos it has nothing to do with evil (whoever first brought that up) it has to do with an unbeliever seeing a Christian in a location where that unbeliever thinks they shouldn’t be. The unbeliever will say (and rightly) well they’re no different then me, I think I’ll just stay the way I am, their Jesus didn’t do anything radical for them. Why is this even a thought let alone a consideration.
Friends,
Though it would be fun to debate with you, I’m going to choose not to do so. You have ably, thoughtfully raised some great questions and even given good counterpoint to one another. Much to think and pray about. Thanks.
Did Jesus ever given the impression of impropriety?
Who is it that we are supposed to be concerned with when talking about the appearance of evil?
I have no answers nor counsel.
Roger,
During our first term of service, we attended a church that met in a mall food court after mall closing. It was A GREAT PLACE! Large, unthreatening, flexible, chairs were already set up, high visibility. I even had an unsaved friend looked for me there one time because she knew it was where we went to church and she knew exactly where to find it!
I wouldn’t let the word “wine” turn you off, UNLESS you think that the use of alcohol as a beverage is morally wrong and you plan to teach these new converts that.
As I see it, the question of the day is “What you want to build into the DNA of this new church plant?”
I have a hunch you have already thought this through and know exactly what your answer is.
I think the answer might be tied to where Jesus would and wouldn’t go to meet with people.
For me, I think he’d go to a cookout at a tax collector/sinner’s house, and meet with a bunch of his rowdy friends, but I sometimes wonder if He’d go into some of our churches (SBC and otherwise).
He seems to have skipped some of the SBC Convention meetings I’ve attended.
Roger-
Rather than defiling yourselves by meeting in such a questionable place, why don’t you stand on that corner and hold up signs that say, “GO TO HELL ALL YOU PAGANS!!”
Brother, go be the friend of sinners.
Go with the love of Jesus Christ.
Go in the power of His Holy Spirit.
Go knowing that as the Father sent Him, He is sending you.
Go remembering that Jesus was regularly harassed by the Pharisees while loved by the tax collectors, prostitutes and thieves.
If I understood your post correctly, you prayed and approached churches and God closed those doors. You continued to pray while approaching restaurants and shops and God closed those doors. You continued to pray and found a place that was both available and affordable (for the amount of money that God knew you had available) and you are supposed to “keep looking”? In the words of Mary the mother of Jesus, “Whatever He says to you do it.”
If you are doing afternoon services and need somebody to fill in at some point, I’ll come on my own dime just to take part.
God speed.
This is late to the conversation, but I thought I’d add it anyway.
The oldest church in our capitol city (Niamey, Niger) started on a small hilltop in what is today the middle of town. At that time, it was just a little bit outside of the most populated area of the city. The church planter asked the government for that land and his request was granted, although everyone told him that the church would never amount to anything. After a while with little results, the church planter asked some of his friends why the church was having such trouble (apart from being in a thoroughly Muslim area). Their response was, ‘That hill is where the traditional religionists used to go to call out spirits and call down curses.’
They were just trying to meet under a little straw mat hangar on the top of that hill, but the church planter then knew that they had to have a time of prayer and blessing on that place.
Today, that church stands as one of the largest in this country and is a sign to the permanence and power of Christ.
Peace, and I hope your Easter services go well.
marty,
dont you think that yours is quite an extreme, strawman arguement? i mean, who besides that wild eyed church in kansas does stuff like holding up the signs like you mentioned? while i personally say that it would not be “wrong” for roger and his church to meet in such a place…as long as they werent serving liquor while meeting…still some people in this comment stream are giving thier opinion as to the wisdom of meeting in such a place. i mean, i would start a bible study in that place in a heartbeat. i believe that Jesus would do that…to reach sinners. but, my church meeting there?…i dont know? i just dont know if that would be the wisest thing to do. i dont think that i would personally feel comfortable meeting in such a place for worship…as a church body. but, a bible study with people? yea. but, now, i also would be glad to worship with roger and his church in this setting someday if i’m ever in thier area…if this is what they choose to do.
david
Marty,
Thanks for the encouragement. God has truly put this together for this time, this place and these people. He has provided a team we did not expect, has us meeting in a place we did not expect and reaching out in ways we did not plan. This has been His from the beginning and all our plans were put aside for His. I am convinced the place He has provided for us to meet is exactly where he wants us.
And I may very well take you up on your offer to speak. I know you “get it” and would be honored to have you worship with us or lead us in worship any time. I’d still love to have lunch with you sometime, by the way, especially with us being practically neighbors’n all.
David,
I am intrigued by something you mentioned: you said you would start a bible study there, but would not feel comfortable having a worship service there. I’m just curious to know what the difference is theologically, in your interpretation. Aren’t both gatherings the same, doctrinally?
And we would love to have you worship with us. It would be a delight to meet you face to face, and to have your help relating to lost people.
roger,
to me…having a bible study with people is different than telling people that your church meets at this spot. it may not be a huge difference, but there seems to me to be enough that it would cause me to be uncomfortable. telling someone that i was having a bible study at this place…to reach folks…would be different than saying that my church met there for worship. do you see the difference?
now, again, if your church has prayed about this…and you and the church see no problem with it…then fine. that’s up to yall. and, like i said…i’d be glad to worship with you sometime. but, to me, i just dont know if it’s the wisest thing for a church to meet in a “bar.” and, certainly not if drinks are being served.
but, may the Lord use yall to reach many people.
david
roger,
great website, btw. man, that was good. i wish i had that kind of computer savvy. wow!
also, you’re a hip kind of guy, aint ya? i mean it…you look like a cool fella…especially that shot of you in the sunglasses.
hey, i saw where you were into record producing at some point. well, it might interest you to know that daniel doss was my former music and youth minister, and i used to go to church with clay cross. and, i’m distantly related to the country singer…darryl worley. of course, all of this means that i cant sing that great, and i’m not famous; but i thought that a music guy might find that interesting.
david
David,
It might help for me to clarify that our main church worship service is at our campus in Dacula, GA. This new worship site is essentially an evangelistic outreach into the retail community at The Avenues Webb Gin.
And the location is a patio outside of a wine boutique (i.e. sells relatively expensive wine by the bottle for consumption mostly off-premises, from what I understand), not a bar, and no drinks will be served, except coca-cola!
I do like our church website, though it desperately needs updating. And our web guy picked that picture, not me. But I look pretty goofy in all my pictures. Wonder why that is…
I did work in Christian music for a pretty good while, with a bunch of great folks no one has ever heard of. I enjoyed it, but was glad when God called me to preach and pastor and plant churches. And I still get to play with our worship band every Sunday! God is good!
I see nothing at all wrong with holding your meeting there. I think it is a great idea. you asked about drawing lines… I’d like to say things like brothels, strip clubs, etc., as good places to draw lines, but I also think we should let God draw the lines, seeking Him first, rather than trying to make up rules before we need them. If, for example, Hosea had a rule about never marrying a prostitute, what would have happened to this scripture?
Bryan,
Good point. I agree we have to let God lead and would add we need great accountability from other mature Christ-followers in making these kind of decisions.
Terrific insight on Hosea. But also it is clear that marrying her was a clear directive from God, and probably not something Hosea would have considered on his own.
Billy Graham held crusades in stadiums, venues that frequently sell alcohol at sporting events. I’ve heard of church plants meeting in hotel meeting rooms or civic facilities, where alcohol might be present when the rooms are used by other groups. I’m a teetotaler, and I wouldn’t have a problem at all with a church conducting an evangelistic outreach at the locale you are describing.
In isolation any issue is simple. Integration of more than one truth at the same time is where it gets difficult. Peter struggled with it on dietary laws when God told him to eat unclean anmials, but God insisted.
God wants holiness that is useful.
We must take up the call of maturity and swallow some challenging stuff in order to be his witnesses to an unholy world. Let us do our best to do so with accountability so that we don’t end up rationalizing and going beyond our mission to the world and becoming at home with the world.
That seems to be exactly what Roger has done. He publicly shared what he was doing and why. Now Roger is on record as saying he wants God’s goodness to be shared and he is willing to risk his religious reputation for the sake of serving God in the world. By doing so conversationally (humble give and take) he is also making it clear that he is not disregarding his religious community. He appears to be integrating more than one value simultaneously.
The reason I have gone on about this is that we need this kind of exchange to happen so that we don’t become traditionalists who no longer bother to think. Nor do we want to stray from our first love and use Christ as an excuse to fit in with our world just to seem urbane.
Roger, it will be good to hear how the outreach unfolds (in general) as well as the way people process the church/wine perceptions.
Yes, I agree.
I just wonder if we as 21st Century followers of Jesus have lost faith in the ability to hear directly from God. Don’t you imagine there were some who wouldn’t hear from hosea because of whom he married? Don’t you imagine they were so intoxicated (given our subject matter) with the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil – their judgment – that they couldn’t see God’s loving message in what Hosea had done and was teaching?
I mean, aren’t many so focused on the brewery church and its alleged evils that they can’t even begin to see Christ in it? They are sinking into the waves and the water because they’ve taken their eyes off of Christ? Meanwhile, I am sure there may be some who are at the brewery church who have become so spiritually proud that they don’t cast such stones that they too are beginning to sink because their eyes are now on their own works rather than Jesus’ work at the cross???
Sometimes the only question we need to ask is the one tony Sisk raises in the 2nd comment – have you submitted to the leadership of the Holy Spirit and are you following it. If so, go.
The only One we need ask about this is the Lord Jesus Christ. . . then go where His Spirit leads us. I have no problem with holding a service wherever the people will gather to hear His Word – it’s out in the open, there will be no drinking, etc. You could reach people there who wouldn’t set foot in a church or home.
Btw, one of my sons is a district manager for a wine company. Because of his occupation, most of the Baptist churches in our area won’t let him join. This is a shame. The Lord uses him every day as light and salt in a dark world, and yet Christians have the audacity to judge what the Lord is doing through an individual. The Lord will probably move him out of this occupation eventually, but for now this is it. I pray we’d have more grace in handling such matters in the body of Christ.
Friends,
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. I will let you know how the outreach goes, and also covet your prayers for this effort! Incidentally, we had our highest attendance ever at our church yesterday (104 folks!) with many lost people present. We presented the gospel clearly from John 1. We also had our highest offerings ever this week and this month, with an extra gift designated to pay all the expenses for our first service at Webb Gin. So God has provided! Pray that He will find us faithful.
One more note: I am currently preaching through the book of John. We have spent the last 3 weeks in John 1 and find ourselves this week in John 2, you guessed it, the wedding at Cana and Jesus turning water into wine. This was not purposeful on my part but God has led us to a place where we will be discussing these issues as a church through the sermon and my small group this week. I love seeing Him work in this way, accomplishing His purposes in, through, and in spite of us and leading us gently where we need to go.
What a wonderful opportunity! God has obviously provided this shop as a place to minister to the community and others that work in the area. Home meetings and services held in churches are wonderful, but this type of setting will reach people that normally wouldn’t feel comfortable meeting in a stranger’s home or at a church. I noticed words like “improper” and “uncomfortable” and “innapropriate” in previous posts, and I would like to mention the fact that Jesus ministered to and visited and associated with some pretty innapropriate people of His time. His unbiased focus should be an example to us all. He never worried about what folks would say when He joined Zaccheus for supper in his home that was furnished with money and items he swindled out of people in his community. Jesus spoke to the promiscuous Gentile woman at the well without hesitation – and with an amazing outcome. He even called Levi (later known as Matthew) as one of His disciples. Aren’t we called to get out of what may be a comfort zone to reach people? I cannot wait to see what God does through this new meeting place.
MB