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The Veneration of Man
Posted by Les Puryear in Uncategorized
Why is it that supposedly mature Christians succumb to the applause of men? The Bible teaches that God is the only one who is good. No man is good, no, not one. If a man does anything that glorifies God, it is because God has caused Him to do so. So why do we honor men for what God has done?
How do we honor men for what God has done? Let me count the ways…or at least some of them.
- Naming seminary or church buildings after venerated preachers, professors, members, or donors. These preachers, professors, members, or donors would have done none of the things which they are venerated for if God did not cause them to do so. The glory belongs to God.
- Building museums to evangelists who were but messengers of the God who supernaturally regenerates every heart that turns to Christ. The glory belongs to God.
- Honoring churches and their pastors for rapid growth instead of Christ who adds to the church as He sees fit. The glory belongs to God.
- The selling of packaged biblical principles revealed by God for the edification of His people. No human being has a copyright on the revelation of God.
Unfortunately, there are many more examples I could cite but I’ll limit myself to these few. Let us not forget that God will not share His glory (Isa. 42:8; 48:11). Honor the God of all creation and not His creatures.
Could it be that revival tarries in the SBC because God knows that if He sends revival to the SBC, we will give each other awards for it and package it for sale?
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[...] you’ve ever pondered that question, I’d encourage you to check out Les Puryear’s post over at sbc IMPACT!. He raises that question and others, and I would anticipate there being some [...]
This is an excellent post and I’ve thought about this a lot (I remember reading it back on your blog).
On the one hand, there’s nothing wrong with celebrating the life or ministry of a man/woman of God. Names and legacies such as Lottie Moon and William Carey have done much to carry the gospel to the ends of the earth.
On the other hand, it does seem that we frequently cross the line. Considering God’s commandments against idolatry, one would think that believers would be much more careful than we are when it comes to God’s glory.
Les,
This is very thought provoking. Frankly, some should read it before spending so much CP money on such things.
Thank you for having the grit to write and post this.
cb
Les,
I asked a Catholic friend how he could be comfortable bowing down before an idol of Mary, praising her name, and then praying to her when Scripture clearly forbade the worship of anyone or thing but God. He said it wasn’t worship, it was veneration.
Just as there is a fine line between veneration and worship, there is a fine line between giving honor to whom honor is due and veneration. I’m sure that no one considers putting plaques on pews as worship, but it has never seemed right.
There are all sorts of ways to teach people of how the faith should be lived. Haven’t you ever seen a facility named after someone and asked about them? It gives opportunity to explain how that person lived their life following Christ. Most of those who were honored in that way gave no thought to anything but following Christ. Are there excesses? Sure. But I for one tell the Lottie Moon story, talk about Hudson Taylor, William Carey, and Billy Graham every chance I can – not to lift up those people, but to show what a cross centered life can be.
David
On museums and fame: I am glad to have had the opportunity to tour museums of William Carey at Moulton, Andrew Fuller at Kettering, and Charles Wesley on Old Street, and churches of Charles Spurgeon, John Sutcliffe, John Newton, John Knox and others. Moreover, I would recommend to anyone to visit these men to see how God moved through their life and ministry.
There is also a verse we must keep in mind when considering the “rightness” of the fame of man, while also considering the legacy of famous men who drew people to hear the gospel because of that fame, like George Whitefield and Charles Spurgeon:
2 Corinthians 8:18 And we have sent along with him the brother whose fame in the things of the gospel has spread through all the churches…
Colin,
If those things are for a witness “to see how God moved through their life and ministry,” that is God-centered and God-exalting and I would have no problem with that.
Would you say that is what the paintings of the huge financial donors to SWBTS in the hallway of the main building is about? I’m not picking on SWBTS. I graduated from there. Something about those portraits of donors always bothered me. Unfortunately, I assume our other five seminaries have the same sort of thing.
It’s kind of like having a bust of Spurgeon outside of the Preaching Labs and then deriding those who hold to Calvinism. A tad hypocritical don’t you think?
Les
To all,
Let me add this story. I was at a conference with Henry Blackaby and his son, Richard. During one of our lunches, I had the privilege of sitting at the same table as Richard Blackaby. After expressing my thanks to Richard for God’s ministry through them, I asked Richard if Dr. Blackaby would ever allow a biography to be written about his life. I thought it would be very interesting to read how God had worked through him and through his “Experiencing God” book and study. Richard replied, “No, Dad would never allow that to happen while he is alive. He has no intention of elevating himself above Jesus, nor doing anything that might be interpreted as him receiving any glory.”
Oh that more people in the SBC were as humble as Dr. Henry Blackaby.
Les
Les,
I made it clear my first point was on two of your topics, not all. My church will not have anything named after anyone. Yet I am not interested in interacting with you about the hypocrisy of any seminary or church on this topic when I have enough in my own life to deal with. Further, I am not aware of SWBTS ever collectively deriding Calvinism. That is a sweeping generality that is neither helpful nor accurate.
As far as the verse I contributed is concerned, Paul evidently deals with man’s fame differently than what it appears you are advocating. In addition, his boasting is not muted when boasting in the work of those he has trained and discipled.
How many of us have dealt with memorials, plaques, etc… In one church I served a guy offered to donate $50,000 to a building project if we would name the room after his mother and put her picture in it. And she had never, ever set foot in the church! And the leaders actually considered it!!!
Such is the lure of money. I despise “memorials” to men (or women) in churches.
On the other issue …
The culture of the celebrity is something close to a sickness in modern Christianity. Somehow I don’t think the likes of Carey, Wesley, Newton, Knox, etc… ever envisioned writing a book with a full-color back cover photo, six-figure speaking engagements, and video rights.
It is most certainly appropriate to thank those who serve and honor their faithfulness. But we must be careful of who we place upon our “celebrity thrones.”
A couple of years back, when I first ventured into the blog world, I answered a question that a blogger posted (I can’t remember which one) that read something like this, “When you go to the SBC, which ‘big wig’ would you like to sit down, eat lunch, and spend time with.” I answered that the only “big wig” that I wanted to dine with was my wife. After all, she … above anyone … would have the greatest impact upon my ministry.
I just refuse to take part in expanding the heads of those “leaders” who seem a bit “over-important.” (I would think that our adventures with one of our denominational agencies and its leader these past couple of years would have taught us a lesson.)
We need to get back to a culture of humility. With Jesus alone on the throne (no matter how big a person’s checkbook may be), and no “memorials” on the walls.
Just my opinion.
i preached a funeral at a church one time, and when i looked at the Lord’s Supper table, i nearly busted out laughing. it was apparently a homemade table that someone had made and donated to the church. on the front of the table, where a lot of the tables read “in rememberance of me,” this one had a little more written on it. this one said,”in rememberance of me.” and then, it had the man’s name!!! the man had put his name after “in rememberance of me!!!” lol.
i believe that he missed the whole point of the Lord’s Supper….dont you?
also, what do yall think about these guys who say that you have to guarantee $1,500, or $3,000, or i’ve even heard of $7,000; before they’ll come to your church to sing, or preach?
david
volfan007 – I don’t think I want to get into the music business here on a post about something completely different. Sounds like you and I might disagree here a bit, or even a lot
If you think $7000 is a lot you are out of date.
I’m not sure what it is about “God is opposed to the proud” (Jas 4:6; 1 Pet 5:5) that is so hard for God’s people to understand.
David,
I wouldn’t need any guarantees to preach your revival, brother!
And $7,000 sounds pretty spiffy to me. Bernard, I guess I’m a bit behind the times, too.
That’s a couple of months of income for me, not three days worth.
Kevin, Indeed, “God is opposed to the proud” is exactly the point. In a world of celebrity, who is anyone to point to the “leaders of the SBC” whoever they are, or the authors of books, directors of ministries, etc. to call out their “sin of celebrity.” It is quite ridiculous, in my opinion, that we can look to them in disgust while cultivating fame in our own lives. Whether it be in the blogosphere, publication, radio, tv, news, families or even in our own churches, the fight of fame exists for any public persona. In fact, I would guess those who take advantage wrongly of that fame are more numerous (by simple numerical advantage) in small churches than in the “leadership of the SBC.” To point fingers because of the sphere of influence of that celebrity is a distinction not found in admonitions against pride.
Geoff is right in that fame in our culture may be a bit different, but I am not willing to acquiesce that it is all that different. People are people, and throngs amassed to hear great preachers of the 18th and 19th centuries. There celebrity was indeed widespread, and they most assuredly took advantage of it. Paul lauds the fame of one he sent on mission, so we ought to be careful about pointing the finger at a certain group of individuals in the SBC lest this turns into one more of those blogs we are all too familiar with.
Humility certainly needs more attention, but adopting a Ravenhill approach is dangerous and unfounded in Scripture.
Geoff – It’s EXACTLY that thought pattern that is actually so offensive to musicians. Again, I don’t want to derail this discussion, which is about something VERY different, so I won’t go much deeper than this unless you all really want me to – but trust me, musicians who have minimum requirements for concerts and appearances are not automatically of the devil, and they’re not making the millions that statements like yours and David’s imply that they are.
As for evangelists and traveling speakers, I don’t have much inside info. But I DO know what I’m talking about with musicians, trust me.
Maybe I’ll post some specifics on my blog if you guys don’t want to derail this. Doesn’t matter to me
Please note that I’m not meaning to be “hateful” about it, but David did ask “what we thought”.
Bernard,
This is, I suppose, chasing a bit of a rabbit … but not really … I have worked with many, many musicians in my days gone by. I know all about the expenses of touring, balance sheets, staff salaries, and such. I once ran a Christian “night club” for teen-agers. I booked big-name acts in the Christian music world for concerts and appearances every couple of months. There were many who asked for modest contractual guarantees. There were some who were way outside my price range. And then there were some I refused to bring (I drew a philosophical line) to “my house” when their twenty page rider required “real half & half” along with their gourmet coffee. (I’m sure you know what I’m talking about.)
And no one said anything about making “millions.”
I think David’s original question had much more to do with the local church, revivals, revival preachers, musicians, etc… There are some whose minimum requirements price the smaller local churches “out of the market,” even though they comprise the vast majority of our churches. Since old-fashioned revivals don’t fit into my church model, I don’t deal with any of this anymore. But I remember it from my previous staff days. I used the be the (low on the staff totem-pole) guy who had to escort the big preachers and buy their lunch at fancy restaurants and such. It goaded me then … still does now.
There is one very big name in SBC life (I won’t name the name …) whom I have heard preach three different times at three different geographical locations … and heard the same “sugar-stick” sermon every time. There is one well-know youth speaker I heard at four different conferences … and the same set of “sugar stick sermons” every time. And both were knocking down thousands of dollars in the process.
This is part of the Christian celebrity problem, I think … when we go to events because of the people on the program.
I guess you can just call it old-fashioned jealousy … the big “green-eyed monster.” I confess it as sin, before all who are here. But it just seems to me to be a profound injustice that the reward for recycling the same old sermons, and the same set list of songs, seems to far outweigh the living earned by men of God who toil week by week, rightly dividing the Word of truth, trying to bring a fresh message to their people … Sunday in, Sunday out.
But I don’t lose any sleep over it.
Geoff – I won’t bother ya. We’re obviously not quite on the same page. Thanks. I don’t have the time to argue it. Got church tonite.
Like I said, I’m not talking about preachers. I just despise the automatic bias that musicians should live on minimum wage while all the parishioners in a church work $60,000 to $100,000 a year jobs. If that makes me carnal, I’m sorry.
In Christ,
Bernard
Bernard, my friend, I don’t think I said that, or anything close to it.
I think we are on the same page, just reading it from two different directions.
Geoff – You’re right, and I apologize for reacting as though you were saying things you weren’t. I’m sorry.
Interesting stuff…
Our celebrity culture in the church is disheartening. I recently recieved several notices in the mail about an upcoming conference. There was no mention of the topics, only the names of the speakers. Why would I care who is speaking? I want to know what topics they might be covering! Then I will know if it will be helpful to me and my ministry!
This is indicative of where we are in this celebrity christian sub-culture. And I hope we can change it to a culture of humility. That said, not every big-name speaker is proud. Some are humble and gracious. But the system itself needs changing for sure.
And may I say – why don’t we ask more IMB missionaries to speak at conferences? I would much rather hear their stories and insight than hear most speakers who get booked at SBC events.
“Humility certainly needs more attention, but adopting a Ravenhill approach is dangerous and unfounded in Scripture.”
What on earth is a ‘Ravehill’ approach? Where has Ravenhill been unscriptural? This is not nice to write about this man unless you get specific so we can check it out.
Working with several big name mega’s I saw this first hand. The ‘Christian’ market is worth billions and you will continue to see this sort of idolatry. We were always getting the ‘big names’ to blurb book jackets, endorse teaching materials, cross sell our materials at their conferences, getting booked into their conferences as speakers, and bringing them in to speak.What they get is what many make in a year.
See, the Name of Jesus was not enough. We have to ‘attract’ people with celebrity Christians.
It is a business, folks. It does NOT fit scripture at all. When Jesus put that little child on His lap in Matthew 18 He was taking the lowest of the low in society and saying, you must be like this. It was not a great marketing tactic to attract followers as children had no social standing at all in the 1st Century. If you don’t believe me, just read the Beatitudes and explain to me where all this celebrity and wealth fit into the Great Commission.
We don’t like to admit it, but Christians have totally bought into the celebrity world. The ‘Christian’ market niche is worth billions. Yep, there are only a few at the top but just look at Christian publishing. More people read Chrisitan books than read scripture! We stand in line to get books signed, try to meet the speakes after the conference or sermon just to get ‘around’ them.
The absolute biggest disappointment to me was to see SBC leaders with their “entourages”. I saw this all the time with politicians but Christians? I know that many mega church pastors have a ‘walker’. This is someone who ‘walks’ with the pastor around the conference or church so he does not get stuck talking with people. After all, his time is very valuable. The walker’s job is to pull them along and say, we have to go. That is their job so the ‘VIP’ does not look mean by not talking to them.
The problem is that after years of this, they start believing they really are ‘special’. So would all of us.
I began to suspect that many of these men/women should step down for their own sake.
It is a snare and a trap. Be thankful if you are not in it.