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Are We to "Do" Things "For" God?
Posted by Les Puryear in Uncategorized
In addition to normal pastor/preacher duties, and organizing the “Small Church Conference” for March, 2008, I’m prayerfully following the lead of Christ to establish a Small Group ministry in the church where I am privileged to pastor.
I’ve never done Small Group ministry before, so I’m talking to pastors who have experience in this type of ministry as well as reading books and listening to CDs. I’ve been listening to a CD on starting Small Groups which was produced by a well known church planter. The information on starting Small Groups is very good and I believe I will be able to use several of his practical ideas. However, the spiritual approach of which this well known church planter speaks sends shivers down my spine.
Here are a few examples:
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“We started a small group ministry and God blessed our efforts.”
“God has chosen to bless small groups here at _______.”
“We thought this was the biggest risk we had ever taken but God honored that.”
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Do you notice anything in the way God is depicted as working? Whether intentional or not, statements such as these depict men figuring out what to do and hoping God will “honor” or “bless” the men’s efforts.
Another indicator of this kind of thinking is demonstrated in the following quote. Hershael York, quoted in the Texas Observer : “Blogging has often stripped away a respect for older men of God that we used to value,” he wrote. “It has created a false sense of intimacy and led some to mistakenly believe that they have a right to criticize, to critique, and to challenge men who have done great things for God.”
I would dare to say that Dr. York does not intend to communicate that older men of God are working in a man-centered approach. However, this only serves to illustrate that all of us fall into this verbal trap from time to time and we need to be aware of it.
When I hear Christian leaders saying they hope God will bless their efforts or they are attempting to do great things for God, I’m not sure they are aware of how some people are hearing what them say. It sounds like they’re saying, “If we try enough activities and strategies, maybe God will see one that he likes it and will bless it.” This attitude smacks of man going off on his own, figuring out what he thinks God might like and then doing that. This is a completely man-centered view of one’s relationship with Christ.
In scripture, we never see someone going on their own to do something “for” God and then God blessing the man’s plans. What we actually see in scripture is God choosing men and women to accomplish His purposes. The God-centered view is that God always has something He wants to accomplish first and then He chooses the people to do His work under His guidance. Biblical examples of God initiating an encounter with Him for His purposes are Moses, Gideon, Joseph, Abraham, David, Samuel, Peter, Paul, etc., etc., etc.
I’m familiar with the famous quote of William Carey when he said, “Expect great things from God; attempt great things for God.” This quote is much admired in academic, missionary, and pastoral circles. However, if taken literally, the quote is not an accurate description of how God works.
In John 5:19, Jesus said, “The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.” If Jesus did not go off on His own attempting to do things “for” God, then why should we? God is at work all around you. Watch to see what God is doing and join Him in HIS work.
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Brother Les,
Do you reckon someone needs to go back and get William Carey’s Calvinism straight? :^)
I can see your desire to make certain that we do not start believing that we are doing things and asking God to bless our mess. However, I am not so certain I am on board for the Verbal Police.
Blessings,
Tim
“Finding God’s will” has become MUCH less of a struggle for me once I truly realized – thanks to Henry Blackaby – that God is at work and I can find His will by joining Him in what He’s doing, rather than thinking that “finding God’s will” always involved becoming a full-time minister or a missionary to Antarctica. The understanding that God uses people in everyday life to do mighty things is a really worthwhile consideration. EVERYTHING WE DO should be for God.
However, we ARE given the opportunity to decide to either join God in His work or to NOT. Peter was faced with such a choice in ministering to Cornelius. Ananias was faced with such a choice in ministering to Saul. These things were clearly God’s will, yet there was a command from God that each of the men had to choose to obey – and that is “doing” something.
I think very few of the people you refer to actually intend to “scattershoot” things and hope that God blesses one. More likely, they are trying to fulfill their clear call as a church and sometimes don’t have any handwriting on the wall, so they seek God as best they know how and follow whatever small leading they have at the time. Then, perhaps God blesses their faith in following the “whisper” that they did hear.
Faith. It applies to ministry, too, not just salvation. Sometimes we misunderstand God’s call, but He may still bless our faithful attempts. That’s how these statements come across to me.
In Christ,
Bernard
Les, so when we see God working and around us and join Him in HIS work, are we working for ourselves or for Him. And yes, I know we are working with God, but why? for ourselves or for Him? For our own reward or for the glory of the King.
Seems to me that we spend too much time focusing on a few words in the statements of others while neglecting the heart of their statements.
For instance, I could write for you, or for satan, for the world, but instead I write for God. In the year that King Uzziah died, Isaiah “heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send: And who will go FOR Us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.”
While I do understand the concept you offer us Les, I have qualms about red flags going off in my brain each time I hear someone says, they are working for the Lord in this or that. The alternative is that they are working for themselves or for satan himself. At least that is my take on it.
Blessings for the day. I will be out of town and will catch up on the post this evening. selahV
Tim, Bernard, and Selah,
It’s not the language so much as what the mindset of the language communicates. As pastors and teachers, are we not responsibile to communicate biblical principles clearly? Or at least as clearly as we know how?
I think Jesus said it best: “From the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.”
A God-centered heart will communicate in a God-centered manner.
Les
Les,
Ok, now you’ve got me thinking and I’m not sure I’m up to thinking today. This summer we will be part of a team of 70 from around our area headed to Honduras. The week before we go, we’ll be commissioned, sent out. At that service people will pray, “God, bless these people and their efforts.” Whenever I pray for those in ministry in dangerous areas I pray, as a matter of course, “Lord, please protect them, but above all make them effective in their ministry.” As I think through what you’re saying, I ask, “Ok, in light of what you’re saying, how then should we pray?”
i dont think that william carey needed his calvinism straightened out. i think that some others need their calvinism straightened out!
les, first of all, i hear what you’re saying. i agree that we need to do what the Lord wants us to do, and not go off on our own and just expect the Lord to bless whatever it is that we want to do. but, i see nothing wrong with doing what you feel that the Lord is leading you to do to reach souls, or to minister to people, and asking the Lord to bless it. i’d want the Lord to bless it. dont you?
also, there’s really no way that we can be absolutely, 100%, sure that we’re doing what God wants apart from the clear teachings of the bible. i mean, did the bible tell bill bright to start campus crusade for Christ? did it tell him the details of setting up the organization? of course not. the bible says nothing about campus crusade. but, did bill bright do great things for God. yes, he most certainly did. the Lord used him greatly, and i’m sure that he would’ve told you that he felt that the Lord lead him to set up campus crusade.
the same thing could be said about your small church conference, could it not? nowhere in the bible does it say that les should have a small church conference. but, do you feel led…to the best of your knowledge…to do this? to attempt this great thing for God? do you feel led to have this conference and validate the ministry of small churches and help small church pastors? are you not attempting something great for God? i think so.
david
As I see it, people can either work “with” God or “against” Him (Matt 12:30, et al.). This is probably the sense that these people are working “for” God, not “against” Him.
Les, I hear your point of the absolute necessity of determining God’s course of action before taking it, for by no means is God obligated to “bless” everything that we do. “Success” in ministry comes from obedience to Him (Josh 1:7).
However, not everything in ministry is so straightforward and clear cut. Paul made plans before taking his missionary journeys (cf. Rom 15:14-29), even though sometimes his plans were quite tentative (cf. 1 Cor 16:5-9). Sometimes the Holy Spirit prevented him from carrying out those plans but instead presented him with another opportunity for service (cf. Acts 16:6-10).
Our choices aren’t always between good and bad, for many times were are presented with several “good” choices. Some things we try and God “blesses,” and some things we try and He doesn’t. So we must make our best plans with wisdom that He gives us, but constantly we must walk closely with Him so that we can hear Him speak whenever He desires, and adjust those plans whenever necessary. One of the ways we find out we missed His “best” is by our plans failing.
I much prefer to hear people speak in terms of “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us” (Acts 15:28) — if indeed much prayer and seeking the mind of God was undertaken — before launching out in a ministry effort, even when the leading is less than definite. “We acted with the light that God had given us at that point,” is far better than, “We tried this, hoping God would bless it.” If God does choose to bless it, then that is further confirmation that you made the right choice.
Cyle,
I don’t want to confuse you or cause you not to pray. That is the last thing I would want to do.
Of course you should pray for protection for those going on the mission trip. Nothing wrong with that in my view.
However, if your prayer in the service is “God bless those people and their efforts,” just what are you asking God to do? How will you know how God has answered the prayer?
I would prefer to pray something like, “Father, thank you for giving these people a desire to go and minister to the people of Honduras. Please prepare the hearts of every person who they will encounter on their way to Honduras, the people they will meet while they are there, and the people they encounter of their journey back home. To the lost, may you touch their hearts through these your people. To the saved, may You encourage and equip them through these Your people. Strengthen them as they join You in the work You are doing in Honduras. Touch their hearts in fresh ways as You do Your work through them and to them. May they return home safely with renewed heartcrys for Your people and for those who do not know You. In all these things, may You be glorified.”
You see, in that sort of prayer, you can know whether God says “Yes” or God says “No.” One can actually see the movement of God and rejoice in it.
However, when you pray, “God bless these people,” I’m not sure how you will know how God has answered that prayer. When you pray “God make them effective in their ministry,” what are you asking God to do? How will you know when He answers a prayer like that? And who said that the ministry belonged to them anyway? Isn’t all ministry God’s ministry through us?
I believe we all would benefit more from prayer if we followed biblical examples in our praying. Biblical prayer is always God-centered and specific in its content. I can’t recall any prayer in the Bible where the one who prays says “God, please bless so and so.”
David,
You’re absolutely right about Carey’s Calvinism being right and the other person’s Calvinism being wrong.
Brother, I hear what you’re saying. However, as I mentioned to Cyle, what are you asking God to do when you pray “God bless such and such”? How will you know when and how God answers? Is “blessing” numerical growth, spiritual maturity, multiplication of ministry, etc.?
You’re right in that I never prayed “God, let me come up with a church conference for the SBC.” However, I did pray, “God, give me Your wisdom and cause me to recognize opportunities to glorify You and advance Your Kingdom.” To me, that is a much more God-centered prayer than “God bless my efforts.”
Perhaps I am being a bit nit-picky, perhaps not. These are the kind of principles I am trying to teach my congregation, so they will be more intentional about being God-centered.
Kevin,
I was with you until you wrote this: “So we must make our best plans with wisdom that He gives us, but constantly we must walk closely with Him so that we can hear Him speak whenever He desires, and adjust those plans whenever necessary. One of the ways we find out we missed His “best” is by our plans failing.”
Perhaps when you speak of “our plans failing” you are saying that our goals were not met. Is it possible that our goals were not the goals of God? Maybe. I don’t know.
I do know a few things. I know that God wants me to sow seed and so I sow seed. There are many and varied methods of sowing seed, however, when I sow true biblical seed, will my plans fail? No. I have been obedient. I am successful in the very act of sowing seed. No one who is obedient to God is a failure.
God also says that if I sow seed, then I will also reap a harvest. How much will I reap? I don’t know. If one person comes to Christ in the midst of my “sowing seed” to 500 people, have I failed? I don’t think so. If I have set a goal of “harvesting” 30 new converts and I only have one, have I failed? It depends on your viewpoint of “success” and “failure.” In this example, I have not met my goal, however, God has saved one lost sinner. What a miracle! I never see a “changed heart” as failure.
In my view, “success” or “failure” is not something I determine by goal setting. There is nothing wrong with goal setting as long as we set the proper goals. Can I change a lost person’s heart? No. Therefore, should I set goals for God on how many hearts I expect Him to change. Once again, no. And so, if my goal setting should not be on what God does, then could it be that my goals should be those things which I actually make some contribution? Yes. Such as what? Sowing, planting, and watering.
I can set goals on how many people I can personally speak to about Christ. I can set goals about how many visits the people in my church should make. I can set goals about how many people, we, as a church, invite to services, events, outings, etc. That is sowing seed, and watering it. That is what God asks me to do. “Go and tell.”
As long as I am doing those sort of things and meeting sowing and watering goals, I am successful in doing what God has called me to do. God is working through me and my church and He will bring a harvest. However, I will not judge the “success” or “failure” of the harvest because that is God’s work and His alone. We are the means through which He communicates Himself and His plan by the power of the Spirit and His Word. He is the means of regeneration of the heart.
Thus, I focus on glorifying God in all that I am and do. However, I try very hard not to run ahead of Him and do something He has not clearly told me, my staff, and my church to do.
Les
Perhaps I did not communicate clearly by using the term “fail.” What I do know is that God gives us the wisdom to learn from our experience — call it “hindsight” if you will. That does not mean that the person was “sinful” in the endeavor, but God can teach us that there may be better or more effective ways of accomplishing the goal. You can probably think of numerous times that you have learned that in your ministry. God allows us to “grow/increase in wisdom” (Luke 2:52). Our heart’s desire may stay the same, to glorify God in all we do, but we learn in our ministry context better ways to do that. Otherwise, why would we train people in how to “be more effective” in evangelism, ministry, church planting, Bible study, etc.?
Since you raised the metaphor of seed sowing, one of the best ways of testing the quality of the soil is by throwing seed there. If the goal is a good harvest, then the sower will cast most of his seed in the places where he has learned that the soil is most fruitful. How does he know those places? He learned by experience — some seed “succeeded” (i.e. was fruitful) in the soil and some “failed” (i.e. was not fruitful). It’s not a sinful thing, for we leave all of our kingdom efforts in God’s hands, and He has a way of causing everything (even our “mistakes”) to work out for His good (Rom 8:28). But on the front end, sometimes Nehemiah needs to act on his burden, making his best plans for ministry with the wisdom God has given him to that point, and pray before launching out, “Make your servant successful today” (Neh 1:11). He would soon find out God’s answer to that prayer.
On the Dr. York quote specifically, I do not see how you can claim that type of verbage is not contained in the Bible. Take, for instance this:
NAS Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God.
Were these men not bearing fruit for God? As believers walking in obedience, do we not bear fruit for God?
Also, there is a sense in which we are doing things for God as in “on behalf of God…”:
NAS 2 Corinthians 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
Colin,
You asked “Were these men not bearing fruit for God? As believers walking in obedience, do we not bear fruit for God?”
No, my brother. God was bearing fruit through them. God is at work through us.
IMHO, you’re not looking at it from a God-centered view.
God works through us. We are His workmanship. Once the focus moves off of God and on to us, we’re in dangerous territory.
Les
Brother Les,
While the difference in the terminology is slight, I thank you for reminding me that it is God who does all work.
Maybe we should more often quote the Apostle Paul from his letter to the Colossians, “We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we present everyone perfect in Christ. To this end I labor, struggling with all His energy, which so powerfully works in me.”
May His face shine upon you,
From the Middle East
Les,
Now I know exactly how my less-than-5-point brethren felt when someone told them their theology wasn’t God centered! It is quite condescending.
Les, I used direct wording from Romans 7:4, and you said it was wrong. It says we bear fruit for God, you say we do not. Further, Scripture states we, for Christ, as though God were entreating through us, do work on behalf of God as ambassadors.
Neither of thee negate God’s sovereignty, nor do they point to a man-centered viewpoint. It was God’s Spirit who inspired the wording in Romans 7:4, and you seem to be scared to allow men to imitate the wording for fear of what their thoughts are behind what they say. It seems dangerously close to determinism.
For what its worth.
Paul didn’t work for God. He was a servant, and glad to be that because servants are provided for by their masters. Workers get minimum wage–which is death. Anything beyond that is probably worse. The hireling flees folks. It’s better to be a servant than a hired hand any day of the week.
Josh,
A servant works for his master, otherwise there would be no need for servants. Did not Paul do the things commanded Him for God?
Luke 17:10 “So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”
We do deeds we ought for God, because He has given us over to Himself in order to do these works, “saints by calling” (1 Cor 1:2), and in His interest. Wallace in his Greek Grammar explains a dative of interest as “in the interest of,” or “for the benefit of.” He places 2 Cor 5:13 in this category:
For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you.
I also think the dative in Rom 7:4 falls in this category. The genitive “for” in 2 Cor 5:20 also has the gloss “on behalf of”, “for the sake of.” So there is clearly a sense where we do things “on behalf of God,” bearing fruit for God, as in His ambassadors, which was my original and only point.
Middle East,
Your God-centered spirit is refreshing.
Josh,
You’re right about the difference between a servant and a hireling. However, we need to be careful to distinguish between the biblical view of servant and the 21st century view of servant.
Check out my previous post about the biblical view of a servant .
Regards,
Les
Colin,
I like you. We don’t agree about a lot of things but you’re okay in my book. You keep me on my toes and I appreciate you doing that.
You refer to a couple of verses with a word translated as “for” and that is the bulk of your argument? I know you would agree with me that we should consider the whole counsel of scripture.
Perhaps a more robust explanation of my point of view can be found in the same link I mentioned to Josh about the biblical view of a servant . I would commend it to you for more of my point of view about this.
The sense of how I am using the word “for” is that of “on our own.” As you rightly pointed out, that is never the case in what God calls us to do. We do things “on behalf of” the Father. We do not do things “for” in the sense of “on our own.”
We are God’s people. We are His chosen representatives on the earth to communicate the good news of Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world. My point is that we should not be doing this “on our own.” Nowhere in the Bible does God ever ask anyone to think up how to best serve God. Not Moses, not Gideon, not Abraham, not David, not Samuel, not any of the major or minor prophets, not Jesus, not Peter, not Paul: no one. To go “on behalf” on the Father implies that we do not go alone nor without instruction.
Do you truly believe that God expects you to do things that He hasn’t told you to do? Do you honestly believe that God wants you to go off on your own and come up with your own strategy to accomplish what only God Himself can do?
Even Jesus didn’t do that. Jesus said, in John 5:19, “The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.”
Jesus did what the Father instructed Him to do and so should we.
Allow me to suggest a reading assignment for you. Get a copy of Henry Blackaby’s “Experiencing God,” workbook and read Unit 2 – “Looking Unto God.” Dr. Blackaby explains the difference between God-centeredness and self-centeredness better than I can.
BTW, Dr. Blackaby is not a Calvinist. However, God used Dr. Balckaby and “Experiencing God” as a foundational tool to form my understanding of what it means to be God-centered.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Les
Les,
you said, “You refer to a couple of verses with a word translated as “for” and that is the bulk of your argument? I know you would agree with me that we should consider the whole counsel of scripture.”
Why did you say this? Your argument in regards to York was that he fell into a verbal trap, demonstrating the kind of thinking you illustrated in your post. I showed you that York’s words and gloss of his use of “for” is not only supported in the Bible, but a similar sentence can be taken verbatim. I do not think you are really reading my comments. I stated from the outset my contention and only point was with your use of York’s quote. I quoted something directly from the Bible, “bearing fruit for God,” and you said I was man-centered in my theology. I like to think of myself as biblically-centered, therefore God-centered. Since you now see my point was directly from the Scripture, you might want to be hesitant to call anyone’s theology man-centered in the future.
As far as this is concerned, “Do you truly believe that God expects you to do things that He hasn’t told you to do? Do you honestly believe that God wants you to go off on your own and come up with your own strategy to accomplish what only God Himself can do? “ you may have guessed already that I never made any point contrary to this.
I think it would be helpful, also, in a post like this to articulate the practical outworking of your thought in the corporate prayer life of the church.
btw, you have some good thoughts here, but they can be dangerously close to determinism if you don’t flesh them out to how one puts this theology into practice.
thanks for the interchange, have a great day
Colin,
Perhaps my views can be dangerously close to determinism similar to how Arminianism is dangerously close to Open Theology.
Les
I am not sure I follow. I wasn’t referring to Calvinism.
Les, sorry it took so long to get back. I am well aware of the differences between the two ideas of servants. Slavery was rampant in Paul’s day and he had the dual viewpoints of the Roman and Jewish ideas of servitude. What gets me is the people who expend so much effort to find out ‘what God’s will is’ when it’s written down in the Bible. All 66 books of it. Gods will, right there.
Colin, I think you made the same point I did except I didn’t have the look up any of the words in my reply. I agree with the ‘on God’s behalf’ concept in as much as it falls in with the idea that what we do is in obedience to his word.
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