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Lots of Empty Seats
Posted by Geoff Baggett in Uncategorized
I’ll be the first to admit that I am no great fan of Baptist convention meetings. I have never had the schedule nor means to attend an SBC annual meeting. The last time I attended a Kentucky Baptist Convention meeting was in 2003, the year my church was brought into full fellowship in the KBC. And then all I did was walk forward when my church was called and stand for a photo op. I spent the majority of my time in the display hall, stocking up on my yearly supply of free pens, highlighters, mouse pads, stress balls, and hard candy. Plus, there was always the yearly free book from O.S. Hawkins published by Guidestone being given away at their booth. And there are always my old youth minister pals hanging out at the youth ministry booth.
But, sincerely, Baptist conventions are just not for me. I suppose my general aversion to “business meetings” is part of my rationale for staying home. I find it difficult to endure an hour of church business, so why subject myself to two days of it? Plus, I have never been one to take part in the pastoral hob-nobbing … you know … the whole suit and tie thing, and trading the, “Well, we’re running ____ in Sunday School now,” exaggerations stories. Since I have no desire to climb the SBC pastoral ladder or hold any denominational office (not to mention the fact that no traditional church would ever have me, anyway 
) I don’t need to make pastoral networking contacts. So I choose to save my money, stay home, and read about it in my complimentary pastor’s copy of the Kentucky Baptist newspaper, the Western Recorder.
And it seems that I’m not the only one. The 170th Kentucky Baptist Convention annual meeting met on November 13-14 in the very centrally located Elizabethtown, Kentucky. Only 942 people attended, the first time the messenger number has dipped below 1,000 since 1974. There were no contested elections … all officers were elected by acclamation. Five resolutions were adopted without debate. There was not a single ballot vote. There was no miscellaneous business introduced from the floor. Lots of money was wasted on those little ballot books and all of those microphones on the floor. (cue crickets chirping…)
There was only one major item of business introduced. Since the convention was unable to conduct business on the second day of the convention for two of the last five years (due to lack of a quorum … messengers bugging out early), the recommendation was made that the second day be dropped. All convention business would be conducted on a single day, with an optional second day for workshops or other events. Again, no debate … and the measure was adopted by voice vote.
So what do you think is going on? Is this a sign of things to come? Is it the economy ($3/gallon gas & $150 hotels) keeping people at home? Was the Kentucky event an anomaly … simply the product of no contested elections for leadership positions? (i.e. Does it take a “fight” to get Southern Baptists to leave home and “come together” for convention business?) Do most people think that everything is a “done deal” anyway … that someone, somewhere, has already orchestrated all of the outcomes … so why bother? Is it a generational thing? (I’ll admit that the only “young folk” that I have encountered at conventions are pastors.) Or is it just a problem of relevance? Are 21st-century people having difficulty investing 2-3 days in something that could be accomplished via teleconference in 2-3 hours?
I’m interested in your thoughts and experiences. Was your state convention well attended this year? Do you even know? 
And … while I’m at it … let me ask, “Did you attend your state convention this year? Why/why not?”
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Business meetings are boring. As an M with the IMB we have annual- or at least occasional meetings. We all look forward to these greatly even though we don’t vote for anyone or pass any resolutions. We get together and praise God, learn about what He is doing, and learn from each other. We encourage one another and love one another. I don’t get to see many of these men and women for years at a time so these meetings are really special. What I have learned from these meetings has shaped my walk with God and my ministry here in Middle Earth.
When Conventions back home become like this the house will be packed. But it takes a real shared vision, burden, passion for God and the lost. We love and encourage one another because we are in love with God and are completely sold out for His Kingdom. Conventions back home can be unmissable times of celebration only when we humble ourselves and live for His Kingdom.
Strider,
What you describe sounds more like a small group meeting than a “convention.:
You said, “But it takes a real shared vision, burden, passion for God and the lost. We love and encourage one another because we are in love with God and are completely sold out for His Kingdom.”
Perhaps that’s what we believers (and churches?) truly missing back here in the good old materialistic U.S. of A.
Great comment.
Brother Geoff,
Do you really believe that those of us who attend these conventions, really thrive on being there? I can tell you from my perspective, I do not thrive on being in a business meeting. :^)
This next question is not a back-door rebuke to you, so please do not take it that way. How far along would your church plant be if it had not been for the assistance, guidance, and other forms of encouragement that came from the KBC? You were educated at a discounted rate at SBTS, and you received training and other forms of assistance. People somewhere made decisions to invest in new church starts and young pastors. Do you not think that it was at such a convention as you have described in your article?
I go to the convention because the church I pastor gives money to the SBC, BSCNC, and South Yadkin Baptist Association. That money is being spent on something and I have a responsibility to add the voice of my church to the mix of voices directing those funds. I will stand before God one day and give an account as to why money was spent without my voice.
As to the BSCNC? I think the last count I heard was around 2500. We had three controversial issues in the state and it was an officer election year. We have a two-year budget. This was the year that the budget was being introduced and so we had a larger than usual Wednesday AM crowd. But the purpose for the Wed. crowd was more of the Baptist Retirement Homes report.
I understand the time away, I have to deal with that also. However, I see my involvement as a responsibility I have to my congregation. I also see it as my responsibility to get my messengers to these conventions. Of course it stands to reason that if I do not go, then those that God has called me to lead will not see it as important either. Can it be done differently? Certainly! Am I for it being done differently? You better believe it! Will it change by my lack of attendance and griping about why I do not attend? Not on your life!
I do encourage you to take a knife and stab you leg the week before the convention is scheduled. Then go to the convention without any pain medicine. I promise you that you will enjoy the convention better. Every time you think about how boring convention is getting you could say; “I could be stabbing my leg again.”
:>)
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
Yes, I genuinely think that some people do thrive on the tension and formality of “business meetings.” It’s good to know that you and I share similar sentiments in that regard.
Of course, this post was simply my expression of why I so rarely attend conventions … because of my personal preferences. And it addressed the lowly attended one in KY this year, as well as the action there to drop an entire day from the schedule in coming years.
But in answer to your non-back-door-rebuke
, the KBC was not involved in my church plant. I did go to Louisville and take the CP assessment … but we never received any funding or other support from denominational sources. Our church was started by a tried-and-true biblical model. Another church facilitated and mentored our plant. New Work Fellowship in Hopkinsville invested over $70,000 in direct support for my family over three years. They helped us in forming our founding documents. They loaned us the occasional piece of equipment. Heck, they still let me walk into their offices each week and print our worship guides so we don’t have to spend $75 at a copy store to get it done.
So, to answer your question, our church would be planted and growing, same as today, with or without a state or national convention. Personally, it’s my conviction that churches need to be planting churches, anyway. But that’s just my opinion.
Anyhow … back to the intent of the post … your account of your convention (BSCNC – I used to go, back when I was on staff at the Memorial Baptist Church in Williamston, 1995-1998 … I remember all of the CBF battles.) seems to confirm that it does take contention to truly draw a crowd.
But I truly think this is much more of a clergy/laity and generational issue. Clergy attend in great numbers because they can (they can afford the time and they have the budgeted funds), but younger people (and lay people) seem to stay away in large numbers because of lack of time and (to use that word that so many people seem to hate) a “relevance” problem.
I think it’s sort of like our daytime, midweek national elections. If we hold a convention meeting during mid-week, and require people to travel to a single geographic location, do we really even want people to show up? And who might we expect to have the time to make it? Pastors, denominational workers, and retirees.
BTW … I’m not “griping about why I do not attend,” just making some observations.
I haven’t had the best experiences, of late, at Baptist meetings beyond my local church. It may, indeed, take coaxing at knife point to get me to another convention.
As a layperson, it simply comes down to time. With a finite amount of vacation time, I would much rather invest in a mission trip. I would much rather take a trip with my family. I would much rather attend a Together for the Gospel, or Founders conference. In fact, I would be hard pressed to attend even if the convention (SBC or state) was held in my hometown because I still would have to take time off from work. Feel free to bring a loving rebuke Tim, I would simply ask you how many other lay folks do you believe feel the same way?
John,
You reinforce my thoughts on time investment, especially among the laity. I think most lay folk who still work for a paycheck would feel the same way.
We all have tough decisions to make regarding our investments of time. Among working folk, this is doubly true.
Geoff,
You seem to assume a litany of perceptions about conventions and ‘Business Meetings’ that possess a strange but consistent negativity about them. Aside from equating a KBC/SBC to ‘days’ of denominational business likened to ‘hours’ of local Church business, at conventions are evidently places where people…
But after revealing for us what really ‘takes place’ at the Convention halls, you bust my britches by asking us :
‘Is it the economy ($3/gallon gas & $150 hotels) keeping people at home?’ Why would it? How are we supposed to get ahead in life if we miss the convention? Count it an investment in your future!
"Do most people think that everything is a “done deal” anyway …so why bother?’ Conventions are not about Business, remember? Rather, according to your assumptions, Conventions are about networking to get ahead. Poo Poo the Business! I want a better Church!
‘Is it a generational thing?’ Excuse me? Generational? You mean as in age? What young person never thinks about getting ahead, moving up, finding the place of greatest impact? What greater place to do that than a Convention where they can ‘hod-nob’ and all the other goodies you unwrapped for us above? Whoever told them that Conventions were all about Business should be grabbed by the throat and choked until they are dead.Conventions are happenings for hob-nobbing. Let’s get that word out!
‘Are 21st-century people having difficulty investing 2-3 days in something that could be accomplished via teleconference in 2-3 hours?’ Again, how forgetful you seem, Geoff. See all of the above–Conventions are for Career Advancement.
Besides, my brother, if one does not possess an appreciation for ‘Business-like’ activities, it matters not whether he/she goes there for 2-3 days or stays home for 2-3 hours. At the Convention, as with you and I, he’ll/she’ll wander the halls. At home, he’ll/she’ll surf the cable.
Grace, Geoff. I hope Kentucky is not so cold this Christmas.
With that, I am…
Peter
Brother John,
Please understand that my “loving rebuke” really is not intended to be rebukative (is that a word?) in any way. I just am trying to point out realities.
Allow me to go at it from this direction. There are realities that need to be examined that are a direct result of people not taking part in the convention meetings.
First, one cannot stay home and criticize the decisions made at the convention. Well, one can, but it is not conducive to change. It is viewed the same as criticizing a sitting President when one did not vote in the election.
Second, one cannot complain that all of the power is in the hands of a few, if one is not willing to involve oneself in matters pertaining to the convention.
Third, one cannot expect to be seated in a decision making capacity if one is not willing to involve oneself in the affairs pertaining to the convention.
Fourth, one cannot complain about how the convention wastes missions money but not involve him/herself in the affairs of the convention.
Fifth, one cannot expect him/herself to continue cooperating to support over 5200 Missionaries on the International mission field, and do away with the SBC convention.
Sixth, one cannot call for fewer meetings and less time away from home to attend these meetings, without understanding that move places the convention over the churches, which is not who we are.
All of this is just a logical flow of non-cooperation if everyone took the stance that convention meetings are too boring to attend, and too time consuming to use vacation. I agree that vacation time could be better used on a mission field some place. I could even agree that we may be holding too many convention meetings. I do not personally see the KBC decision as a bad one. I was on the Preacher, Program and Place Committee for the BSCNC, and suggested doing away with Wed AM sessions. This is something that was shot down before it came out of my lips nearly. But, I unable to see the wisdom in replacing face-to-face debate and dialog to give direction to the convention the churches are over.
Blessings,
Tim
Good morning, Peter.
I was just posing a few questions, my brother. You seem to have your answers. Obviously, I have mine, too. But you can rest assured that it wasn’t “little old me” that caused people to stay home rather than attend the KBC last month. I’m just curious enough to wonder why they did … and ask the questions. Perhaps there are some other questions that could be asked? Some other reasons that could be cited?
But, seriously, any denial that great volumes of pastoral politicking (ladder climbing / networking / office courting) occurs at conventions/meetings on any SBC level is simply that … a denial … or, perhaps a state of denial.
And, come to think of it, I seem to recall that you missed “roll call” at the GBC this year.
So, beyond analyzing my own personal motives, maybe you could share what led you to let your state convention “slide right past” you?
Brother Geoff,
Sorry I missed you. It seems that your post came up while I was responding to Brother John.
Please read and respond to my concerns expressed to Brother John.
I am not aware of the ministry that you said directly funded $70k to your church plant. I think that is great and incredible. I also agree with you that churches start churches, not conventions. However, I also know that churches use convention resources in order to plant churches. I will be the first to say that we have problems in this area that need addressing. I also know that you have not been treated with much welcome in the area you are located. For that, I am sorry and I do not want that statement to take this post in another direction. However, I can assure you that is not the case everywhere.
My main concern with this direction that you have described, is where this will lead us 10 years from now. I understand that Lifeway has a study due out in the spring that is shaping up to be a huge surprise for the future of traditional churches. (Of course you know my history with research results from Lifeway. :^)) That is my same concern with the SBC. If pastors do not get involved to be a voice of “relevance” then we will end up with the convention running the churches and forming offices of Bishops in order to place pastors in churches.
Blessings,
Tim
Geoff,
I have never attended a SBC Convention either, but probably will do so next year. It has always been an issue of time and money for me, but I am starting to feel a sense of responsibility to share my voice and help shape the future of the SBC. So I am planning to go next year. Want me to pick you up on the way?
I would like to go to the SBC, I think, just to meet all of the people I have “met” on-line. I think it would be more about relationships for me.
I’ll go if you take that 6th spot on my Peru team the week after that.
Dear Geoff,
I was not elected a messenger. With that, I am…
Peter
I’ve never been to a state convention either in GA (where sometimes it was held in my home town of Macon) or Florida or to a national convention.
I understand the arguments for participation above and I think they are well stated.
For me, it boils down to diminishing returns. The impact that the SBC has on my small church is negligible. We participate in the missions offerings, have adopted two great missionaries, are even an Acts 1:8 church – shoot we even have “A Southern Baptist Church” on our sign.
But we also support other missions efforts, buy almost all of our literature from others, and aren’t interested in participating in the hue and cry as factions reach for power.
If we could participate online we would. I watch segments from the national convention every year. But to tear money out of a small budget and rip time out of a stretched schedule to hear reports I can read at home?
No. If it ever gets to bishop election time, we’ll just change the sign to Baptist alone and keep right on reaching people for Christ. The SBC is one part of the Kingdom, not the whole.
Brother David,
I am just asking because I think I can place my finger on a difference. Are you SB by convenience or by conviction?
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
So those are the only two options that one can claim as his/her rationale for being a Southern Baptist?
Tim, the reason I am Southern Baptist has everything to do with doctrine. So if those are the only two rationales, I’d say conviction.
I’ll toss you another bone of contention. If the SBC becomes Reformed, the doctrine will have changed and my sign will change.
I am certainly swimming upstream on the river of less convention involvement. I go to the national convention and my state convention each year. Parts of it are boring, parts are riveting. I feel a stewardship responsibility and I always end up with some irreplacable blessings. The part I enjoy the most is the friendships that are built and maintained by those contacts. But I do note that most of my contemporaries and younger don’t attend. I wish they did.
Doug,
You said, “I do note that most of my contemporaries and younger don’t attend.”
Why do you think that is the case?
It might well be because of the reasons you mentioned for why you don’t. Maybe they don’t value the benefits of the denomination as much as some. Maybe they don’t value being around the older pastors and leaders as much as I might wish. Maybe they can’t find a nearby Starbucks. I’m not sure why. I do know that I have an appreciation for the convention that is higher than many of my peers. (And, I’m not that big on Starbucks!)
I’ll speak up for laity. I’m the same age as Geoff, so I can’t speak for the younger crowd…;)
I’ve been in small churches and large churches. I’ve found more interest in conventions, particularly associational and state level, in laity from small churches. In my experience the large church always let the staff and wives use up their messenger allotment. In effect, the large church outsourced this responsibility/privilege to the professionals.
The church has a right to make that decision, but I find it incredibly short sighted.
Another issue I feel could be responsible for lack of lay involvement is the lack of leadership development in some churches. By that I mean true, biblical leadership, not the worldly fight until I get my way leadership. Leaders who don’t roll their eyes when you use a word like propitiation. Leaders who lift the arms of their pastor when he is tired, not just tell him to buck up. These type of leaders have an appreciation for those who are leading larger organizations as unto the Lord. They see a big picture.
I admit my data is from a small sample, so my analysis may be suspect.
Respectfully,
MikeWay Research…;)
Mike,
Big Mr. Comedian …
Interesting take on the multiple staff thing. I can see the truth in your summary.
But I’m not sure what you mean in the leadership development paragraph. Can you clarify that for me?
i go to conventions because i like to drink alcohol and get into bar room fights. i also like to eat like a horse at all the good restaurants. not.
i like to go to conventions because we hear some good singing and some good preaching. i also like to go because i can play a part in direction that the state and national convention travels. i feel it’s my responsiblity to be involved if my church is gonna be a part of the sbc and tbc and the weakley county baptist association. also, i enjoy seeing old friends and making new ones. it’s great to be able to spend time with everyone over a meal, or out in the hallway.
i, like tim and geoff, am not thrilled at sitting thru business meetings. but, they are needed. thus, i do it in order to fulfill my duty to my convention and my church. who does like sitting thru business meetings?
why dont the young people come? i bet a lot of it has to do with finances and having small children to deal with. oh, i remember the days.
david
David,
In all honesty, the best times that I have ever had at conventions have been the meals with a group of friends. Back in my youth ministry days we also had an annual meeting the day before the convention … it consisted of a golf tournament and dinner. Good times.
I guess that’s just where my priorities are at this part in my life. I like spending time and investing in relationships with people. Surely, those meals out are some of the most valuable (and needed) times at convention.
Plus … you’ve eaten with me. You know that this big Kentucky boy can do a little damage to a buffet or a menu.
I started going to convention meetings last year, when I came back on a church staff after a 13 year hiatus, mainly because we support them financially, and there have been some bad decisions made by the state convention here in Texas in recent years. I believe the focus on cooperative ministry and missions has been lost in the politics of recent years, and that deep change will be necessary for the conventions to survive and continue to be relevant in the future. I went to the SBC last summer, mainly because it was in San Antonio, a three hour drive away, but with things going on there as they are, I am planning to be in Indianapolis this summer.
The system can’t be changed unless we change it through its existing form. So I will participate until I either see the changes taking place, or until it gets to the point of no return in decline.
Brother David Wilson,
You say; “If the SBC becomes Reformed, the doctrine will have changed and my sign will change. In all due respect, you seem to have privately changed your sign. If you are not attending the conventions, then you are in effect only participating by sending your money. Hey, I am not trying to be harsh, I just do not understand how one can support something where there is no voice.
Brother Geoff,
You say; “I like spending time and investing in relationships with people. Surely, those meals out are some of the most valuable (and needed) times at convention.” I would agree with you. Some of the best times I have at conventions are in the exhibit area along with the restaurants. Right volfanoo7? :^)
Blessings,
Tim
Tim, if you’ve been in church long enough, you know people have all kinds of voices. They can speak volumes without saying a word. Just do something they disagree with and see what I mean.
The multitudes like me are speaking with our feet. I won’t be offended if you would like to consider me an ex-SBC guy. You’re not in my chain of command. The people I work with know where my loyalties lie as does the one I report to.
I’ve been SBC since I was placed on the cradle roll at Bethesda Baptist church in Macon, GA. I was saved there, ordained by them, educated at Mercer and NOBTS.
But it’s become obvious to me that my time, my money, and my energy is best spent on the mission field here rather than at conventions. God bless all of you who choose to go. I’m going to invest in relationships with unsaved people, not convention goers.
Brother Geoff,
Sorry that I missed your one line response to me. You say; “So those are the only two options that one can claim as his/her rationale for being a Southern Baptist?” Help me understand any other options. It seems that any option will come back to either convenience-this fits my needs at this time in my life, or conviction-this is who I am and I will not leave or allow changes in direction or doctrine without my voice.
Brother David Wilson,
I honestly was not trying to be harsh. If my comment #26 came across that way to you, please forgive me. It was not my intention. I do understand that people vote with their feet and you are correct that there are different voices. But to equate a voice with money support only negates everything back to money. Would you not agree?
Blessings,
Tim
Brother David Wilson,
Sorry for the entire last part being bold. I forgot to close the code. That last sentence should read as follows:
But to equate a voice with money support only negates everything back to money. Would you not agree?
Geoff,
my rambling thoughts on lay leadership have to do with
a) those who are content to rule their small kingdom without seeing the bigger picture of kingdom cooperation.
b) those that believe that only clergy is responsible for having a vision/passion for what God is doing in associations, and state and national conventions.
The way to overcome these lay issues is for pastors to develop and encourage leaders who serve a BIG God.
Tim wrote: But to equate a voice with money support only negates everything back to money. Would you not agree?
I’m not making that equivalence Tim. You are.
You are taking the position that participation in once a year conventions is essential to being a member of the SBC, and I am not (as are the VAST majority of other SBC churches).
The convention system is on life support. The threads that held it together have either broken or are badly frayed. Rather than change, the idea seems to be “let’s yell louder at those who don’t come”.
Uh huh. Let me know how that works.
As a Tennessee resident I have attended part of 2 state conventions. The first was in the late 1990′s. I attended that one with my father who was a messenger from our church. I heard a good message, sat through a business session and got to meet some of parents’ friends from the mission field. The second TBC I attended was this year. My parents invited me to the “Missions Extravaganza” on Monday night. As my pastor is the (outgoing) president of the TBC, our choir had been asked to sing Tuesday morning before he preached. Business was still in session when we were seated in the “choir loft”. There was one order of business being addressed and two more followed. As soon as the business session was closed about 25% of the people in the convention hall LEFT! Several others filtered out over the next few minutes until about 1/3 of the crowd had departed. We were to enter a time of worship through music and the proclamation of the Word and people got up and walked out! There may have been a good reason for a few people to leave. But the mass exodus made it very clear that people had come for the “business meeting”. The business items before the convention had the potential to be points of division. We had the opportunity to leave the contention behind but only about 2/3 of those originally present took the time to come together in worship. Those who left ended up losing. The message was pertinent to this topic. My pastor asked all those under 45 to stand. There were less than 50 people standing. The SBC is aging. Whose gonna’ fill their shoes (insert George Jones song here). I left there sad…both at the lack of involvement by younger generations and the attitude that business is more important.
Jaylee
JayLee,
Thanks for sharing your experiences … especially your more recent one. Very revealing.
But as a member of the <45 crowd (barely
), I would say that failure to attend conventions should not be assumed to indicate a lack of involvement. My generation and younger are very involved in church life in a hands-on sort of way. We’re just not that interested in “conventions.” And, generationally speaking, I think there is an aversion to the “business” aspect of things regarded as spiritual.
Makes me think that, instead of lamenting the lack of involvement by the younger generations in the current system, perhaps that system should adapt to the next generation. But that’s a whole other can of worms.
You said, “The SBC is aging.” I quite agree. And rapidly so. Which is why we must be about the task of planting churches. But, alas, that is another post for another day.
Thanks for joining in the conversation here at sbc IMPACT!
Geoff
geoff,
let me ask you something. do you think as younger pastors get older that they tend to become more involved in conventions? from my own experience, and from some of my friends experience, we are a lot more involved in conventions now that we are older. we were not that involved in our younger days….finances, young children, etc. but now, as we got older, we became more involved.
do you think that some of the young’uns out there who are not that involved in conventions right now might become more involved as they get older and see the importance of what’s happening at the convention levels?
david
David,
I really don’t think so. Especially as the “postmoderns” come of age, I don’t think they will experience some sort of “awakening” of a desire to do conventions and such.
But I may be wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time.
Geoff,
As a fellow pastor and
Geoff,
Not sure why this didn’t post the first time?!?! But here goes again…
As a fellow
Terry,
Your comments are getting shorter. I think it may be a time warp or something.
Try sending it to me by e-mail if you get “strike three.”
Geoff, I sent you 2 emails. Please post the second for me. I’m not sure what the problem here is…might be the weak wireless hookup.
Terry
Geoff,
As a fellow
Geoff,
As a fellow “under-45” Kentucky Pastor, I would encourage you to check out my blog entries on this year’s KBC. I was there for the whole meeting, and I shared some of my feelings on the meeting on my site a few weeks ago. My postings have made some people within the state a little upset with me, and they have let me know. However, I feel that it is well within my rights as a contributor and faithful participant in the KBC to share my thoughts and concerns about the future and direction of our state convention. Our church is a 100% supportive SBC church; we increased our CP giving this year by .5% and challenged our folks to the biggest LMCO goal ever. So to say that I have some questions and concerns is not to imply that I am not a “loyal” Kentucky Baptist as some might suggest.
On the other hand, I was able to have a great conversation with new President, Dr. Bill Henard. I believe that he will be a great leader for KY Baptists and he has a great vision for making our state convention better. ( I only share this info with you about our conversation because he gave me permission to do so, otherwise I wouldn’t post private conversations.) He assured me in our conversation that it is his desire to bring as many “to the table” as wish to be involved in KY Baptist life and that it is his desire to network with more (and esp. younger) pastors to get wider involvement in KBC life. I for one am going to do my best to attempt to promote wider involvement among younger guys.
Thanks for all you write, I really like this site a lot. I would love to speak to you more about the unique situations and opportunities that we have in common as ministers in this great commonwealth, even though I am on the complete other end of the state from you! Keep up the good work.
Grace to you,
Terry
Pastorleap.wordpress.com
When my husband was a pastor, our church always paid our way, a perk of sorts, to the conventions. We couldn’t wait to hear the young pastors Adrian Rogers and Paige Patterson, Manley Beasley and even the firey James Robinson (back then)speak at the pastor’s conferences. Since we were probably the only people in the church that actually studied what was being presented, we were a good choice. However, in our later years we noticed that most of the pastors, who got their ways paid, whose congregation put their confidence in, were the ones that spent all their time in the display room and in restaurants and visiting the local amusements. Would you skip out on your own church’s business? It was never drugery for us, it was exciting to be a part of the workings of our great convention.
Since blogging about everything SBC has becoming so prevalent, I think churches should encourage more of the laity to be messengers. Encourage them to bone up on the issues. Teach about Southern Baptists in the churches. Laity seem to be much more serious about the business they are called to do than many in the pulpits.
As far as I know, neither convention ever came up at our church and no one was voted as messenger and, of course, no one was represented. Maybe that is why no one is going to the conventions. Did you pastors encourage your church to send messengers?
I actually watched the whole thing (the whole thing including the pastor’s conference) online this year.
I think I will volunteer next year. I heard Sam Porter gave a stirring message about diaster relief at the BGCO. I can always use something to knock me off my comfortable couch.
I’m with Tim on this one.
Liz
Liz,
The problem with laity being messengers is that they have to work. Think about it … most conventions are held on Tuesday and Wednesday. How many people in the laity do we really want involved in convention business if we hold the meetings at the most inconvenient time imaginable (mid-week)?
I have less than 10 people under age 50 in my church. All are working people. All cherish their time off with their families.
And you mentioned something very interesting … that you watched the whole thing on-line. There are many of us who believe that (since we live in the 21st century, and have incredible technology at our disposal), why can’t we:
*Hold conventions in th evenings.
*Register the maximum allowable messengers from each SBC church through an on-line, interactive delivery (PIN number for voting, discussion).
*Allow questions / discussion through e-mail and/or instant messaging.
*Allow votes electronically by PIN number.
We can’t claim that it can’t be done, because LifeWay is doing a research project that involves six members from every SBC church.
We have the capability, but do we have the desire to truly involve every Southern Baptist in the convention’s business?
Geoff,
Good morning. As I’ve followed this thread zigzagging around, you seem to be all over the place–from ‘aversion to business’ to the ‘hobknobing’ for positions.
When someone like our Liz offers an alternative, it is shot down with reasons that seem to undermine your own position.
Laity can’t attend because convention’s are held at the “most inconvenient time imaginable”. But I’m wondering now what would constitute the most convenient time imaginable. If one says, “O.K. Let’s do them Friday-Sat.”, how easy to retort: “Do you honestly think people would come if you had the conventions on weekends after most people have worked hard all week?”
From my vantage point, the time is basically a moot point–or at least has been. Many messengers in my former Churches took vacation days to attend. I know, I know–Who would do that today? But I actually know lots of people who would if the convention were that significant
Finally, in advocating a “PIN” approach, it seems some things would still need to be present that are actually absent from our present situation:
1) Messengers would need to possess an attitude that is not a priori against business agenda The way some write here no amount of convenience will overturn their aversion to business, whether on the net or in the Dome. Business is still business.
2) Dishonest voting exists now. To open it up on the net would invite a tidal wave of it. In addition, since using other people’s ballots at conventions now is not unheard of, how will the protection work in passing off PIN numbers to others?
3)Currently, we lament the ‘politicizing of the process’ in voting on either candidate for office or of issues in particular. If this thing goes online, it seems to me it would become nothing BUT political maneuvering, little more than an American Idol lookalike contest to give America [SBs] what they want.
If the system needs changing–and for the record, I’m all for making it better–perhaps a regional type approach would more fit our historic congregational polity. All aside, if the ‘elder’ approach continues as a leech to suck congregational life from our Churches, we could always borrow the organizational chart from our Presbyterian neighbors and mimic how they do it. That’d work.
Grace. With that, I am…
Peter
Peter,
That’s just me … the picture of inconsistency.
What was Liz’s alternative that I shot down? Quite the contrary, I agree with her that if we are going to have conventions, we need more lay involvement.
Obviously, the most convenient time would be Saturday & Sunday. If conventions are that all-fired important, we should be fine with letting 10 lay-people go … and leave all the pastors at home to tend their flocks. Now, there’s a novel idea.
I’m not quite sure why web voting would be open to fraud. As long as a suitable number of representatives are voting from each church, it should suffice. The sheer volume of involvement would insure that a true majority of Southern Baptists was represented … not just a handpicked few.
You said, “But I actually know lots of people who would if the convention were that significant.” I think I agree. Maybe that’s why so few people attend anymore … unless there is a fight brewing.
With regard to your elder comment, my church has elders. It does work quite well. And, anyway, there are some who say that we already have an elder structure in place in the SBC.
Geoff,
What’s wrong with the “over 50″ crowd being messengers? Wisdom still comes from God and not blogs, doesn’t it? If the convention is only promoted to the younger crowd, you are probably right, they have different priorities, but I think it is not being promoted at all. If it were promoted as something worthy, you might be surprised who would take a few vacation days to serve in that way. We have gone as messengers as working laity. It’s all about promotion.
Sorry to say that many bored, burned out and frustrated pastor’s just don’t fool with promoting something that they are not interested in themselves. That is why the numbers are down IMHO.
Personally, I like the idea of electronic voting and podcasts, but it is risky. It would be easy for intruders and easy for manipulation.
I am, however, very interested in this Lifeway research you mentioned. “Six from every church?” No one in our church is aware of this. Please tell me more.
Respectfully,
Liz
“It would be easy for intruders and easy for manipulation.”
Oh, so manipulation doesn’t happen now? Seems I recall hearing about stories of buses showing up with “messengers” for certain votes then leaving.
Maybe we could find that “Baptize a Million” bus and go round picking up all the laity that never read state papers, or blogs and don’t know we have conventions but really, really want to go.
We are into beating the dead horse part IX all the while discussing tack, feed, and stabling. The horse is dead.
It’s not promotion that lacks. It’s a coherent and communicated vision that captivates people both pastor and laity and drives them to action.
To continue beating the horse…
I guess if you think that only seminary trained pastors can interpret the Word, you might think that Baptists on a bus that don’t read the state paper cannot make wise decisions, either.
Messengers are not supposed to be hand picked, but a general sampling of the churches. Laity that don’t read the state papers are just as welcome to be messengers as those that the pastor tells them how to vote, probably more so.
I’m sorry if I sometimes step on toes of pastors, calling it as I see it, but I thought this blog wanted views of all SBC’ers.
My horse is dead now.
Liz
A “Ready! Fire! Aim” approach isn’t going to get it done Liz. Nowhere am I saying the laity don’t matter, or elevating pastors above their biblical role.
And I’m not playing generational cards either. I’m 54. BTDT got the scars.
So you can bring agendas into a discussion, or be helpful.
Oh my gosh, David! I have no agenda. I am posting one of the reasons that I believe the seats are empty. If you don’t want to accept what I say, fine.
If differing, and possibly unpalatable, opinions are not welcome, then why have the blog? I think it is helpful to explore problems that might and do exist.
I am truly sorry if I have hit a nerve. I will not post anymore on this topic unless specifically addressed.
Liz
OK, you two … calm down or I’m going to go get Roger Ferrell.
Of course all views are welcome here. And we can disagree. No problem there. let’s just try to do so agreeably. I think you two share some sentiments, but differ significantly in a single areal. Liz, you see great value in the conventions and think something should be done to get more people involved. David, you, oh the other hand, seem to see little value or relevance in conventions, and you seem to regard the process as sort of “slowly going the way of the buffalo.” Am I correct? If so, you two are a few light-years apart in your basic Baptist “worldviews.”
But, any way you cut it, it’s been an interestign discussion. I thought the thread had died off, but it just seems to keep hanging around.
Liz,
Of course there is nothing wrong with the over 50 crowd being messengers. The vast majority are. But I thought that the desire of most people seems to be the inclusion of more people in the process. One can hardly deny that the vast majority who attend conventions tend to be a bit older. So, the missing demographic must be under 50 (or even younger than that). So, shouldn’t strategies be devised to include them, as well?
Again, I think that the claim that a web-based approach is ripe for fraud is a misconception, if not a bit of a smokescreen. After all, we already do our banking, shopping, credit cards, portfolio management, and even our retirement on-line. Are we to assume that Southern Baptists could not be trusted to cast votes on officers and budgets without the involvement of fraud? Are the events at a convention so critical that anyone would even go to the trouble of committing such fraud? I don’t think so.
I assure you that your church leadership knows of the survey, if they read their mail. Each church in the SBC was mailed info on an on-line survey regarding the Cooperative Program. Their desire is to collect data from every church. The pastor and five other people (of mixed sexes and various church responsibilities) fill out the on-line survey via a PIN code. Ask your pastor about it.
Geoff,
No need for me to chime in on the diplomatic front. I thought you handled that rather well.
Liz E. & David W.,
Bless you both. And thanks for joining in the discussion.
And actually, we all have agendas, and they can be helpful. My agenda is that I want us all to get along, to share the gospel, and to glorify God through making disciples. And that is probably your agenda, too. But our interpretations of HOW to do that are probably different. And that is what makes our diverse fellowship so exciting, and more effective than if we always all agreed.
And that is also what makes this blog great – different folks with different opinions, listening to and learning from one another; always looking for the best, most effective way to move along God’s agenda, while showing love and respect for one another.
I agree that we should move Conventions into the 21st century, and be good stewards of both time and money in doing so. I also agree we need to engage younger folks (while continuing to engage older folks) because if we don’t, someday there will be no SBC folks at all. So thanks, everyone, for these good suggestions.