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Old Time Religion
Posted by SelahV in Uncategorized
When I was a little girl visiting my grandmother in the hollows of Tennessee, I recall singing, “Give me that ol’ time religion, it’s good enough for me.” As my uncles strummed on guitars and banjos the mountains echoed, “it was good enough for Moses, it’s good enough for me”.
Today I wonder is there any place for the “old time religion”? Are the remnants of our ancestors useless–obsolete? In today’s culture some seem to think it necessary to reshape the old, discredit the past, and round-file traditions. How many traditions discarded today and replaced by new ones will find their place in our descendants cultural graveyard? Are any worth keeping? Lately, we’ve discussed things from a sinner’s prayer to gift-based ministries. Seems like so much of what is being discussed in blogland is not about preserving, but discarding. I spent the better part of last week preparing a post for today on altars and coming to the altar. I read through a pittance of the 400-plus references from STRONG’S Exhaustive Concordance to see if I could find why an altar was important–if at all. How did coming to an altar become significant, traditional? I wondered.
Why do people credit Charles Finney, a minister of the 1800′s? Where’d he come up with the idea? Despite the many folk who may disagree with me, I believe God started altar calls. From the first altar to the last I looked at in scripture, each had a common denominator. God.
From what I can tell Noah was so overjoyed to have finally made dry land that he built the first one as soon as he got off the ark.
“And Noah built an altar to the Lord and took of every clean animal and of every clean fowl and offered burnt offerings on the altar.” Gen. 8:20. God didn’t think it inappropriate at all. In fact, “When the Lord smelled the pleasing odor [a scent of satisfaction to His heart], the Lord said to Himself, I will never again curse the ground because of man…neither will I ever again smite and destroy every living thing as I have done.” {21
Amazing don’t you think? Furthermore, “God pronounced a blessing upon Noah and his sons…”. {Gen. 9:1a.
I know. That was then. We no longer burn sacrifices. Yet, throughout history the altar of God was a place where men went to call upon His holy name, to remember the Lord’s promises and the covenants made. For the sake of discussion, let’s take just a few altars.
Abram built one when God gave him the land of promise near the tree of Moreh. {Genesis 12:7] Then Abram pulled up his tent pegs and departed from there to the mountain with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. “…there he built an altar to the Lord and called upon the name of the Lord.” Gen. 12:8. Later, Abram messes up in Egypt and the Pharoah sent him packing and Genesis 13:4 says he returned to “where he had built an altar at first; and there Abram called on the name of the Lord.”
Think he was repenting? Reaffirming his faith and covenant? Or simply praising God for deliverance?
Again and again we see the prophets and leaders of the old time religion building altars to the Lord and calling upon Him. Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Elijah. Why the need to build an altar? Why build one everywhere they went? They humbled themselves there, and recognized One greater than they. They confessed sin and praised God.
David proclaims, “I will wash my hands in innocence, and go about Your altar, O Lord. That I may make the voice of thanksgiving heard and may tell of all Your wondrous works.” Psalm 26:6,7. And again, “Then I will go to the altar of God, to God, my exceeding joy; yes, with the lyre will I praise You, O God, my God!” Ps. 43:4,5.
In thanksgiving David goes to the altar of God. In brokenness and sorrow, yet also to praise Him and wait upon Him.
I believe that these few passages give some validation to the altar we have today and why some hold it as an honorable place to visit, and why preachers everywhere find it a place to call congregants to gather, kneel and pray. Even Jesus said, “So if when you are offering your gift at the altar, you there remember that your brother has any [grievance] against you, Leave your gift at the altar and go. First make peace with your brother, and then come back and present your gift.” Matthew 5:23,24.
I really don’t think the altar is about us. It is about Him. It’s not about what people think or don’t think of us or we think of them; it’s about humbling ourselves before God. Today we aren’t comfortable with that. And it’s all about comfort and ease, isn’t it? I wonder if we’ll be comfortable when we get to heaven for John says in Revelation 6:9:
“When the Lamb broke open the fifth seal, I saw at the foot of the altar the souls of those whose lives had been sacrificed for [adhering to] the Word of God and for the testimony they had borne.”
Don’t you think if God was pleased with Noah’s altar and the fragrance of his sacrifice in Genesis, and He has an altar readied in Heaven above when we bow at our Savior’s feet, that He might take notice if He were to see His people who are called by His name come to the altar and pray, seek His face and turn from their wicked ways? Or is that just old time religion?
My prayer is that we will never feel ashamed to walk an aisle and profess our Lord before men. Nor will we feel intimidated or shunned for going to the altar to lift up praise and petitions before the congregations of His people. May all preachers everywhere call Christians to the altar each Sunday to pray for a greater throng to be counted when we inevitably hear these words: “…Rise up and measure the sanctuary of God and the altar and number those who worship there.” Revelation 11:1b. selahV
[copyrighted, hariette petersen, 2007]
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Sister Hariette,
What a refreshing article. Of course, you will hear that going to an altar will make people uncomfortable and could be responsible for turning them away from the Gospel. Revelation 11:1b should be a fresh reminder that God thinks very highly of the altar. Also, we are told to “present our bodies as living sacrifices” The Bible makes clear that the only place sacrifices were presented were on the altars.
Since I started preaching, I have called people to the altar. Not for salvation, though the Spirits work of salvation has taken place there, not in order to renew a covenant, though the Spirit’s work of renewing a covenant has taken place there, but to just humble oneself before God. Some will say that people can humble themselves in their seats as easily as they can at an altar. I honestly believe that if I do not have enough of the Spirit of God in my life to get me to walk down an isle in front of everyone, then I would not count on having enough of the Spirit of God in my life to take me to Heaven when I die.
May we see a renewal of God’s Spirit in all of our lives this Lord’s day.
Blessings,
Tim
For the missional or emergent I don’t think the issue is to have an alter or not. The issue is are we going to take the alters out of the old empty buildings and take them home with us. Are we going to provide ways for the living God to meet us in neighborhood parks, apartment complexes and in suburban homes. The idea of an alter will always be uncomfortable, its the whole humility thing after all, but the other side of the coin is are we going to be comfortable taking that alter out its hollowed shrine and bring it into the lives of lost people. Yes, we need to portray the offence of the cross but the question is are we going to leave our comfort zone to do it.
Bro. Tim, I’m so glad your heart was refreshed a bit by my thoughts. I have heard this off an on throughout our ministry. There are folks in every congregation who see absolutely no need of going to the altar. My thoughts, though not confrontational, have done little in persuading them any differently. But I have never been in a church that was growing in the love of Christ for the brethren that didn’t have movement toward the altar each week.
I’ve seen an entire church change in mission and perspective as a result of folks going to the altar to pray for specific needs within the body of believers. I loved our old country churches that left the doors unlocked and folks came throughout the week and found their way to worship at our altar in complete solitude. I often did it myself.
And while I advocate we continue to encourage people to come to the altar in our churches, I am not saying at all, that people cannot meet God in a bedroom, a park or a backyard hammock. I have. A heart that is sacrificed to God, and sanctified in Christ, is at worship every place.
What I am saying is that God Himself is Who established altars and God Himself meets all who humble themselves before men. What can be more humbling than a man weeping at the altar of God? What can be more strengthening than to see a family gathered there in prayer? For in our weakness we are made perfect in His strength. Maybe I’m just getting old, but I find it inspiring to witness. selahV
Good afternoon Strider, Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts here. I fully agree if churches are empty, there is not much need of an altar. I’m not all that familiar with missional or emergent, so I’m at a disadvantage in addressing your issues from your perspective.
In this post, I hoped to present my perspective. You did say you didn’t “think the issue is to have an alter or not. The issue is are we going to take the alters out of the old empty buildings and take them home with us.”
I would hope we’d all remember as we leave our buildings–be they empty or full–that our bodies are the temple of God and so we’d always seek “to provide ways for the living God to meet us in neighborhood parks, apartment complexes and in suburban homes.”
All the folks I know who go to the altar in our churches in my past 31 years as a Christian, and 23-plus years in ministry, are the exact people who I’ve witnessed “taking that altar out…” and bringing “it to the lives of lost people.”
That is the coin we can all flip.
Many of the people who have sat in their perspective pews or sneered at those who left their seats are the folks who went home and propped themselves in their recliners and searched frantically the next Sunday mornings for the Bible they’d left on the dash of the car all week. Just another observation from my side of the coin. selahV
Our church has an altar call early in the service, before the preaching, for people to come to the altar and pray. There are several people that will pray with anyone that wants someone to pray with. I think this is one of the strengths of our church.
Liz, that sounds great! I agree it is one of the strengths of the church and prayer is the power necessary to see real revival in the hearts of our churches today.
I just learned this morning at Sun. School, that our department is starting a new call to prayer time on Sunday mornings at 7:00 a.m before the first service at 8:00 a.m. We are just going to all meet in the sanctuary and pray for the leaders in our church, the pastor, the teachers and the folks who will come for worship and Bible study. I am so excited about it. Next week will be the first time we meet. selahV
I have been in a church that didn’t have altar calls, and the other extreme of a pastor who made you feel condemned if you didn’t come to the altar every Sunday (he also took it personally if you didn’t come forward). The balance, I think, is allowing the Holy Spirit to work in people’s lives, not at our convenience or to make the pastor look or feel good. I think the response cards are okay, but I don’t think they should take the place of an altar call. If we only have response cards, that seems like it’s just for the pastor to meet with you at a time that is more convenient for him, and he will also already know what your need is so he can prepare for it. No relying on the Holy Spirit to lead him if you come forward during the altar call. There also won’t be the inconvenience of being late for lunch. It will all be nice and tidy.
I don’t know. We can all only share from our own experiences, and that’s all I’m doing. I’ve been to the altar as the Holy Spirit moves me to go there, and it’s made a difference in my life, even if it’s just being obedient to the call. I’ve also been there because of the pressure from the pulpit, and it was empty when I got there. I’ve seen people go forward week after week because the pastor says to, and they don’t understand why it doesn’t make a difference in their life. It has to be in response to the Holy Spirit, nothing else.
I know people can be saved without an altar call, but I don’t see that as a good reason to not offer an altar call. And I sure don’t see not offering one because it makes people uncomfortable, although that appeals to me because I can be on the shy side. God doesn’t call us to be comfortable. I don’t think Jesus lived a life of comfort. If we’re too comfortable in church, well, I’m not sure we’re really growing in our walk with the Lord.
Thank you, Selah, for this very informative post. It’s interesting to read how others see the same things in different ways. And, as always, these kinds of issues should send us searching our bibles for ourselves, and asking the Lord to speak to us personally.
I also enjoy the devotionals you write on daily Impact. I look forward to them each day, and am always blessed by your thoughts.
God bless you,
Rose
SelahV,
I think just as every new generation of teenage boys, it seems, thinks they are the first to discover sex so does every new generation of Believers think they discovered the need and mandate to take the gospel to the world.
What we used to call “going into the highways and byways” or “beating the bushes” some now call “missional” or “emergent.” In truth, I don’t really care what they call it. I just think we need to do it and do it in the way God intended.
I also think that to develop a lofty, intellectual, theological, refutation against “gathering at the altar” to pray is is more an excuse to “veneer” a prideful heart than it is to “seek to be theologically sound.”
I think a good response to an “old fashioned” alter call might help the whole Southern Baptist Convention.
cb
Rose..you’ve added another dimension to the altar call that I deleted from my original post due to the length of it. I had enough stuff in my first draft to write four posts and knew my co-contributors would have been sending me reproof messages (i.e. stop, ever heard of the word bloviate and verbose?) had I left it all.
Thanks for pointing out the abuse that can come from the pulpit side when a pastor’s pride is more important than the Spirit’s guide. selahV
cb…honored I am that you would comment, my brother. Elated I am that you’d agree. Grateful I am that you’d define so succinctly the emergent and missional message.
I heartily agree we need a “good old fashioned altar call” for the SBC. Do you think God would be able to decide what to do with all the various suggestions we offer Him on fixing it? I do, but some might be disappointed in His position on things. selahV
Could it be that the altar has a special place in people’s lives because it is the place where they first decided about their relationship with Christ?
in the words of Andre crouch, “Take me back, take me back, dear Lord to the place where I first received You. Take me back, take me back dear Lord where I first believed.” In other words, we want to be reminded of what God has done in our lives and never forget. It’s not saying, “take me back and let me do the old thing” but that attitude of desiring Christ. Take me back to that attitude.
Could it also be that the altar as a place of decision, reminds us and reminds others that, yes, there is decision that needs to be made. And those decisions MUST issue in action.
Perhaps these issues come to mind when we think of the alter call.
Steve
Hi GROSEY! thanks for adding some salt to the stew.
I think you have something there. I think by the continual praise offered at the altar by David in Psalms, we can get a picture of reaffirming a commitment and letting go of the past. I just have an overactive imagination, I guess. Because I’m always thinking at the end of the message when the invitation song is sung, Wonder what God thinks at this very moment? Wonder if He cares that no one is here? When I found those verses in Revelation during my study on this post, I was deeply moved. I’d never really read them before–not in the light I did this time anyway.
So many saints who died for their faith. So many who would dance as David, and shout and praise God in days of old. So many who stood in the arenas and suffered humiliation, torture. Peter–crucified upside down. Paul beheaded. Stephen stoned. They will be gathered at the altar of God described in Revelation. What a privilege to be counted among them, don’t you think? selahV
SelahV,
As you know I have pointed, many times, to things that need to be “fixed” as you say.
Yet, please understand that I believe the “first” thing we ALL need to do is not to suggest to God how to fix the SBC, but rather we,the SBC, needs to ask God to fix us.
I think maybe we should ask God to fix us as individuals, as families, as churches and finally as the SBC. Then I believe we should go to the world outside and encounter it with our story of how God is fixing us and how He is able to fix all “who shall call upon the name of the Lord.”
He will honor such as do call upon His name, be they at an alter or in a sewer.
A God so capable needs not my suggestions, but rather my obedience.
Before such a God may we all come together at the alter,and in unison say, “I bow on my knees and cry, Holy, Holy, Holy.”
Then may we sing, “I clapped my hands and sang, Glory, Glory to the Son of God.”
cb
cb…preach on my brother, preach on! selahV
I’ve never seen a time of true revival in which the issue of an altar call was an issue. When a group of God’s people humble themselves before Him, and His presence is manifested in their lives, the altar is full. One woman walked up and said, “I don’t know what I’m doing here. I’ve never even been in a church. I don’t know if I’m doing this right, or really what I’m supposed to do. All I know is that I have to come up here and get on my knees before God.” I’ve never seen a full altar hurt a church, but I’ve preached to churches with full pews who weren’t doing anything. I’ve never seen brokenness at the atar that didn’t also translate to witness in the world. I get discouraged when people don’t come to the altar, and I am encouraged when they do. It is false teaching to say that bowing our knees is unnecessary. The Word says that on the day of Jesus’ return, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. I believe if we would fill our altars with broken hearts, God would fill us with power, and the world in which each of us lives would not be the same. If old time religion includes hearts broken over sin, and Chrisians humbled to the point of physical expression of threat of that humility, then I say gimme that old time religion.
Well, Cyle: The “old time religion I’m talking about definitely “includes hearts broken over sin, and Christians humbled to the point of physical expression of that humility.” So I’m gonna amen your thoughts completely. thanks for commenting. selahV
Well put thoughts about altar calls. The “issue” of altar calls, though, is not about whether broken and contrite hearts come together around a physical place to pray and call out to God in worship. The “issue” is whether or not the altar call is used to “save” people. If an altar call is used to coerce people to “make decisions” (as the Finney model is infamously known for) then that is not correct. If an altar call is used for people to bow before God in an assembly then that is correct.
Scott…good morning and thanks for bringing to the board the “issue” I failed to articulate in my post. I find your issue is much the same as any you agreed upon in this post when it comes to the altar. I began my point on altars with “Despite the many folk who may disagree with me, I believe God started altar calls.”
The altar is a place folks come because they recognize it as honorable to meet God. If Christ is lifted up He will draw all men unto Himself. If Christians recognize the value of coming to an altar to pray, confess sin, reaffirm their initial commitments, and praise the Lord for all He is and has done in their lives, why wouldn’t a lost person feel compelled to come to the altar? And when a preacher who has just preached that Jesus said, “Come unto Me all ye who are heavy ladened and I will give you rest”, why wouldn’t the preacher not invite the lost to enter into that rest that only Jesus provides?
The issue for me (not necessarily one other soul in the world) is what is so wrong about presenting the gospel in church, in a pulpit and then asking if any hearers of that Word want to act upon the Words they hear?
I will give you this, Scott. I am not in favor of beating up on congregants and issuing guilt-trips. But if John the Baptist could say “repent and be baptized” and folks came to him, then I’d say it is reasonable to assume an annointed, God-called preacher can do the same.
Throughout Christ’s ministry on earth, there are lost people who come to Him in all manner of ways. If the altar is not a place to call people to repent, then what makes a living room floor, a bench in the park or a seat on the plane any more valid a place?
Thanks for your thoughts…please feel free to dissect mine. It really helps me think.
selahV
SelahV (that’s a fun handle),
You pointed out…
Ask the honest question about the altar calls that God started — WHO did He design them for? The answer is simply that He designed them for His elect to come and worship. The altar was not the place for people to come to a decision, it was a place for them to celebrate, mourn, sacrifice, worship, and pray as a group of people.
When Peter said “repent and be baptized” (Acts 2:38) it was to give a reference point to the hearer of his sermon for connecting to the Holy Spirits move on them that had just occurred. It was not the point they made a decision — God had already done that part. This is why it is so important for gospel preaching from the pulpit to happen. Its the hearing of the word that God uses to couple His salvation to His people.
The altar then maintains its proper perspective as a place of worship — not a decision making place.
Scott: thanks, I feel as though I needed a new name that projected more of who I am when I write on any given day. SelahV fit my thinking completely. I call it a God-thing.
Now, to your wonderful instruction to me:
You said, “When Peter said “repent and be baptized” (Acts 2:38) it was to give a reference point to the hearer of his sermon for connecting to the Holy Spirits move on them that had just occurred.”
I’m going to give you the point of the hearer’s conversion for sake of argument. That is simply not an issue for me. It’s not about conversion, it’s about acting upon the conversion that seems to be the debatable subject as far as I can tell. I may be wrong–have been on multiple occasions. Just my biased opinion on the matter.
I agree that “This is why it is so important for gospel preaching from the pulpit to happen. Its the hearing of the word that God uses to couple His salvation to His people.”
Who could disagree with that? It is straight out of the Word. For how can one know if one does not hear so great a message?
Perhaps what most folks who reject the idea of calling the sinner to act upon their decision, as in your words, (“It was not the point they made a decision — God had already done that part.”), are really objecting to is the wording for which preachers have used and are using in the pulpits across the land.
Would you agree that after preaching the gospel message, a pastor could then invite those who have heard God speaking to them to come forward and profess publicly that He has spoken to them is acceptable? Could a pastor in today’s pulpit ask a lost person to come if they have heard His Holy Spirit convicting them of their lostness without Christ to testify to that fact?
Know what comes to mind for me when I ask these questions? The naked demoniac who came to himself and couldn’t stop telling what had occurred in his life. The woman at the well. The countless people who encounter the living Christ and couldn’t restrain themselves for want of sharing what Christ had done in their lives. That’s why I think it important to have altar calls for the lost. It gives them an opportunity to make public what “God has already done” in their lives, as you would say.
So, Scott, I have now asked myself the “honest question about the altar calls that God started — WHO did He design them for?” and I still come up with the same answer…those who would call upon His name. And if what you say is true…the elect are the only ones to whom God calls to the altar, and the elect are already elected because God has already done the work in them, then it stands to reason that it behooves a pastor/preacher/evangelist to call them to the altar and make that public. For Jesus Himself said that all who profess Him before man, He will also profess before the Father in heaven, and He who does not, He will not.
Just some of my thoughts that came tumbling out as a result of your wonderful dialog. Again, thanks. selahV
This is in fact my “model” for invitation with perhaps a tweak. The altar is not for the lost. It is an opportunity to come and begin corporate worship. The invitation then is not for the lost but for the found. Hence, the altar is for worship among believers and not a conveyance of decisions.
Scott…lol–there’s always a “tweak”, isn’t there? sigh, “The altar is not for the lost.”
Is the church? Can we invite the lost to the church?
Tell ya what, Scott. You have truly given me some wonderful ideas for future posts. Would you believe that? You are an inspiration and a seed in the garden of my mind. And while it rests in the soil of my thoughts I’m behooved to tend to its growth. I will try not to drown it with too much water, or mistake it as a weed. Instead, I’m going to hoe around the edges a bit and see what comes of it.
Indeed, the altar–is many things to various people, and given my limited knowledge on the doctrinal appetizers you bring to the table, I must chew a bit more to digest the caviar you’ve smeared upon my cracker.
And since you’ve asked no question of me, but rather placed your views upon the hors d’oerves tray, I shall leave it there till we meet again at another party. Grace and blessings be yours. selahV
One question to Scott: If a lost person is not allowed at the altar to make a decision, then exactly where is an appropriate place for them to humble themselves and kneel in God’s presence? It’s almost like you are saying that a lost person (in the process of making a decision to follow Christ) shouldn’t be anywhere near the church altar. I don’t believe you have to go to the altar to be saved, but why would you give an invitation and not “invite” them to kneel before God–that’s what we are commanded to do. And besides, God has to be the one “working things for His good” or the person probably wouldn’t have the nerve to go to the altar in the first place. It makes me sad to read your commentary on the altar. For to me, it is a place of salvation, repentance, renewal, worship, and relationship. I am reminded of an old hymn:
IS YOUR ALL ON THE ALTAR?
You have longed for sweet peace,
And for faith to increase,
And have earnestly, fervently prayed;
But you cannot have rest,
Or be perfectly blest,
Until all on the altar is laid.
Is your all on the altar of sacrifice laid?
Your heart does the Spirit control?
You can only be blest,
And have peace and sweet rest,
As you yield Him your body and soul.
Would you walk with the Lord,
In the light of His Word,
And have peace and contentment alway?
You must do His sweet will,
To be free from all ill,
On the altar your all you must lay.
O we never can know
What the Lord will bestow
Of the blessings for which we have prayed,
Till our body and soul
He doth fully control,
And our all on the altar is laid.
Who can tell all the love
He will send from above,
And how happy our hearts will be made,
Of the fellowship sweet
We shall share at His feet,
When our all on the altar is laid.
Karen, you echo my question with a different inflection. It is hard to understand why it is okay to be converted in a playground, in an apartment building but not at the altar. I, too, struggle with that concept. I think it is just that some folks do not see a need to call anyone to the altar to be converted to Christ because they worry how genuine their conversion is when someone asks them to come to Christ.
Correct me if I’m wrong about that one, Scott, but isn’t that the crux of the matter? Is it kind of like the Gentiles not being allowed into the temple courts, and the lepers being set outside?
Loved that beautiful reminder of an old hymn, Karen. Do you know who wrote that and when? selahV
Its not the lost person’s decision. Decision making does not provide salvation whether it be on a playground, in a stadium, in a pew or at the altar. God saves, not people. Coming to the altar requires God to make alive the dead.
Fact of the matter is our churches are so full of lost people from the pulpits to the committees to the boards to the Sunday school coffee makers that our altars have pious religious people kneeling every Sunday morning, evening, Wednesday night, and Saturday morning men’s breakfast. The altar has become not a place of worship but a place of showing off.
I apologize if that sounds terse. I don’t mean to come across that way. For me the greatest mission field is our churches. But then that turns the conversation to regenerate church membership.
The altar is not the primary conversion place, it is the public place for corporate worship. It is a place of public sacrifice. Those things require salvation of God first.
Oh my, Scott! You were either up late or very early this a.m. And it appears you had a bowl of Wheaties. Isn’t it wonderful that the “Fact of the matter is our churches are so full of lost people from the pulpits to the committees to the boards to the Sunday school coffee makers that our altars have pious religious people kneeling every Sunday morning, evening, Wednesday night, and Saturday morning men’s breakfast.” ??
My husband preached that for 23 years and we saw many a baptized member come to receive Christ and be sanctified in Him.
Everyone keeps telling us that the mission activity is outside the church and here you have unreservedly pointed out (and rightly so) that our churches are one of the greater fields white unto harvest that we have. However, I had to go make a pot of coffee to swallow your deduction that “The altar has become not a place of worship but a place of showing off.” And I still couldn’t get it past my eyeballs.
You see, while that may be true for some folks who go to the altar, it is not true for all folks. “Terse?” A bit. To make such a blanket statement regarding the millions of people who go to the altars of God each week paints them all with a rather broad brush, don’t you think?
“Thank God I am not like those publicans going before the altar to bring glory to myself.” (My writer’s license with a well-known statement regarding sincerity of a soul before God.)
I may write about “regenerate church membership” another day, and it does have a place in this topic on altars, but I am hesitant to bring it to the altar at this time.
I’m grateful you gave us one nugget, “The altar is not the primary conversion place…” At least you concede that it may be a secondary conversion place, no? selahV
Steve,
I understand what you are saying. It is rather simple and has been said for many years by many folks. I do have a question or two.
Do you take the opportunities God provides to share the gospel with lost people on a regular and consistent basis? Do you pracitce the whole of the Great Commission?
cb
Harriette,
My shift starts at 6am so I get up early to enjoy coffee over internet reads since the paper isn’t here at that time. LOL
Not at all. Its a rather accurate picture if people use the altar for decision making instead of its intended purpose of worship. Now, if millions of people use it for true worship then of course it would be broadly applied. The church system does not support that conclusion, however.
I’m sure you’re not meaning that as being directed toward me.
I assure you, anything I write about any issue of the church so-called is always directed toward myself first in its meaning and then to the general populace readership. So, trust me…I am not pointing fingers that have not first been directed at my own person.
I concede no such thing. It is secondary only through God’s will if that is where He wishes to convey salvation. Not at the whim of a decision supposedly made by a lost person who has decided he is ready to be saved.
This is an interesting topic. It has definetly given me much food for thought and has helped solidify some areas for me. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to discuss it with you.
Scott,
I made a terrible mistake. I addressed you as Steve rather than Scott. I guess it was me who was up late.
Above you will see two questions adressed to Steve which should have been addressed to you. Will you answer them?
cb
Okay, Scott. you’ve done gone and made me mad, now. to call me hariette is bad enough, but to spell it wrong is simply my undoing!
I’ve got to run to a counseling appointment, but want to chat a bit more with you when I return. I’ll make a pot of coffee and you bring the sugar. (I do drink mine black, though).
selahV
SelahV,
Oops! Its only one ‘r’! I am so embarrassed. My sincerest and humblest apology.
cb,
Not a problem. Yes I will answer them…
Question #1
Yes I do. In my line of secular employment I have the opportunity for this every day.
Question #2
Yes I do. Assuming Matthew 28:19-20 as the Great Commission, I give the gospel to to many ethnic groups (nations), I teach them the doctrines and commands of Jesus thereby making disciples of them (with varying degrees of success and failure), and I baptize them as the occasion arises. The corollaries also apply: I preach the gospel to every creature (person) (Mark 16:15) as given opportunity to do so and I start in my “Jerusalem”, moving out eventually into the end of the earth (4000 miles from where I started in my particular testimony)(Acts 1:8) which usually finds me coming right back home, much like Paul did in coming back to Jerusalem.
Its a “in season and out of season” thing with me. (2 Timothy 4:2)
Scott,
I am glad to hear that about you. So many who “say” they believe in the Sovereignty of God and grace alone, as I think you do, I hope anyway, say so because:
It is now vogue to say that. They really do not have the biblical or theological depth due to lack of study to understand the principles of Sovereignty or Grace.
It is a covering for their being cowards. They do not have the backbone to confront their culture with the gospel so they hide behind the doctrines of Sovereignty and Grace.
It is a covering for abusing alcohol and raising hell while claiming to be super spiritual. These guys are “sorta” our Neo-Pagan Gnostics at-large-in-the-SBC guys.
I am glad you answer as you do. This gives me an idea you do not fall into one of the afore mentioned groups of folks claming to be what they really are not.
I am glad you are more like C. H. Spurgeon than some I could mention running around today playing like they are theological giants when all the while they are just kids playing with big boy toys.
cb
Well, I’ve got my mug and filled ‘er up. More on the burner when I need it. Hey cb! Glad to have you join our high-coffee. You can have tea if you want.
Scott: I’m so disappointed. What is a lost person to do if he has the “whim” that the Lord is calling him to be saved? Did not lost people come to Jesus when He was on earth? Did He not tell them what they must do in order to be saved when they came? I dare say the rich young ruler was not the only one who came to Jesus with that question.
No, I’m not poking fun at you with my license on the publican/tax collector prayer. I’m saying that when we sit in judgement of another’s movement toward “what he believes” is answering God’s call upon his life to be saved, we must be very careful in saying he is not able to do so for whatever reason we may have. For instance, while I trust you are a Christian, a follower of Jesus, I cannot be certain you are born again, justified, saved and sanctified, even if you tell me you were converted in the lap of Charles Spurgeon.
“anything you write about the church so-called”…what is a so-called church? are you a member of one or are you saying we are talking about one? also you said, “Now, if millions of people use it for true worship then of course it would be broadly applied. The church system does not support that conclusion, however.” Which church system? the one that is “so-called” or your church system?
Would you mind, for purpose of my understanding, sharing with which church you affilitate? It usually helps me to communicate better. When were you converted and where? Can you share how that occurred? I have several readers who email me who are too shy to post a comment but want to know. How did you come to the place where you knew God was converting you and what did you do afterwards? This would help them, and me, immensely if you would not mind sharing your testimony.
Thanks…selahV
People make decisions every single day about whether to follow the call of God or to reject the call of God. Certainly, Jesus is the only way to salvation, but He gave us a free will and the true relationship doesn’t take off until the lost person makes that decision to trust in Christ as Lord of their life.
Which Scripture tells us that it is okay to assume we know the motives behind anyone’s trip to the altar? To imply that people are just showing off is quite lofy. Only God knows the true motives of people. If they are showing off, shame on them. If we are judging, shame on us.
CB,
You said, “So many who “say” they believe in the Sovereignty of God and grace alone, as I think you do, I hope anyway, say so because:
It is now vogue to say that. They really do not have the biblical or theological depth due to lack of study to understand the principles of Sovereignty or Grace.”
I am wondering just how much “theological depth” a person has to have, in your opinion, to come to Christ?
Good question, Liz!
SelahV,
While your statement carries paradox meanings in assuming my Christianity while doubting my born again state you are wise to state so. A Christian will only be recognized by mere earthly mortals by the fruit they exhibit consistently. I assure you though, I was not converted in the lap of Charles Spurgeon. That’s just creepy. LOL
The “church” system can be evaluated on my blog under the theological explorations tab. Yes, that was a shameless plug!
I will give a testimony for the sake of the shy reader…
Born into a SBC family I was found at church every time the door opened. Third grade found me in ‘baptism’ class where I was taught the in’s and out’s of Baptist Christianity. Afterwards, I came forward to join church and got baptized. As my life progressed into high school and college I forgot my upbringing and became an embarrassment to my family, myself, and the decision I had made in third grade.
Eventually, I met a young woman who caught my fancy and I asked her out. She quite frankly said no. But she did ask me how my relationship was with Jesus. We developed quite a friendship as she witnessed to me during my feeble courting attempts. One night I was by myself in my apartment listeing to a Carman tape when I was literally driven to my knees in tears with the utter realization that I was a sinner that had not received anything like true salvation. That night, God found me and brought me home. I answered the invitiation at a Baptist church in WS, NC (Les knows of it I believe, on Peacehaven and Country Club) to announce God’s claim on my life.
As time went by I was baptized properly (as a profession of true servanthood to my Lord and Savior), answered the call to the vocational ministry (hospital chaplaincy, youth ministry, and bi-vocational pastor). I am not serving a vocational ministry position at the moment as I am in my last class of my Master degree (SBTS) while working full time at a local hospital.
Of course, this is just a sketch. Perhaps you have a better idea of who I am. I give it freely to the readers. There by the grace of God, go I.
P.S.
I married that young woman. And we attend a SBC church along with our family.
Scott, many thanks for sharing that wonderful testimony of coming to Christ OR Christ coming to you.
Creepy…yeah, now that you mention it. However I was thinking of it when you were much younger when I said it and the metaphor was of one who would have had one of the more stately of Christians as a witness. I guess I failed in my attempt on that one, eh?
You and I have similar conversion accounts with a few minor differences. I’m glad you phrased your movements and actions and inactions so succinctly. I’ve often wondered the procedure for which a Calvinist, (reformed believer) steps into the arms of our Savior. I’m sure this will help some who email me and I will do my best to interpret for comparison their conversion and your conversion in the doctrinal semantics with which we all seem to struggle.
Thanks for sharing that.
Also, would you mind answering Liz’s question above to cb from your perspective? I think that could go a bit further down the path to communication and dialog, too. selahV
Answer Liz’s question? Sure. But I would like to clarify something first.
While the theology I employ is very similiar to that of a “Calvinist” (some would indeed go so far as to say “reformed”) I myself shy away from that label as there a few things (paedobaptism for one) I cannot agree with in the typical thought processes usually linked with that label. If asked to provide one (and I feel that coming
) I use the term “Sovereigntist” for reasons best elaborated on elsewhere.
Now…to Liz’s question:
None.
Good night!
zzzzzzzzzzz!!
Scott…funny…zzzzz. I’ve read of the Sovereigntist before. You must explain that when you get some sleep. selahV
Liz Eubanks,
I think,…. No, that’s not correct. I KNOW you missed the point in what I was saying. Actually you missed it a thousand miles.
I will answer your question for the sake of answering the question not to varify what I am saying, because your question has no relation, on this planet (universe) to what I actually said. Nor does it relate to why I said what I said.
The answer to your question is that a person need have no theological depth to come to Christ. That is the answer and the only answer there is to your question. At the same time, may I ask you to go back and read what I said again. If you do you will see my context was not about the initial salvation experience one has when coming to Christ as Savior.
Karen,
Maybe you need to go back and read what I said also, because it was not a “good question,” ………Liz
SalahV,
Help me out here.:-) Call Peter to get me out of this little mess you have brought upon me.:-)
cb
Aw cb, it’s more fun to watch you wiggle. Peter’s in Jerusalem. Can’t even get a signal on him.
I tried to point out that you were welcomed to my coffee/tea party just before Liz asked her question of you. Some folks just gotta get ta know ya. I figured your answer was none…but wanted to hear Scott’s answer also.
Liz and Karen, what I believe cb is trying to say is that some folks have this way of telling some folk today that grace supercedes our walk with God and gives us a free ride in life. Some folk give others the impression that they have a deeper understanding of the way God’s sovereignty works and so therefore they talk the talk of gospel witness amongst themselves while condemning others for their efforts. Am I even close cb? selahV
SalahV,
You are TEN RING dead on at a thousand yards. Nice shot. You are “one shot, one kill, any time, all time” on this one. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
cb
Why you are entirely welcome cb. I have a tee-shirt with that one-shot, one-kill written on it. My grandson is in the AirForce. Never shot a ringer at that distance before. wow! wait till I tell Peter. selahV