Elders In Baptist Congregational Life
Posted by Cyle Clayton in Uncategorized
I’m not sure I even knew what an elder was. Our church was invested in FAITH. We had deacons and a church council. We were reaching people but couldn’t get them to church. They needed more than the first contact, but that was all the FAITH teams could do. Sunday Schools had to followup. Their teachers had to lead them to assimilate these new people. However, S.S. member didn’t want to, and some teachers didn’t want to. So what were we to do with all these souls? We decded to push the issue. After all, this was about eternity. If a teacher wouldn’t lead in outreach, then a teacher wouldn’t teach. We presented our plan to the deacons. They all signed off.
One Sunday morning we presented the plan to the church. That afternoon I was in the middle of a firestorm. When push came to shove, I got knocked down. A few days later a junior deacon came and told me I was wrong. My attitude was haughty, but we had to do something. Another deacon meeting ensued. Several agreed that I was wrong, so in anger I asked, “Why then did you all sit there silently and let me stick my head in the noose?” Heads fell and there was no answer. Thus began the year from hell, and thus began the transformation of the leadership of our church.
I had worked hard to establish a functioning church council because I am a team player and because my Church Business Administration textbook said I should. However, some of the people on the council simply were not spiritually mature enough or fit enough to guide a church. Our deacons had begun the process of becoming servants long before I arrived on the scene. I found out they had tried to lead and were shot down a few years earlier. They wanted to serve, not to lead. I was discouraged, frightened and frustrated. I had no idea what to do, but I had a friend whose Baptist church had established elders after the moral failure of the past two pastors and the failure of the deacons to handle either situation well. I had always thought he was insane. Elders, what little I knew of them, were for Presbyterian churches. I didn’t need another board telling me what to do, or failing to tell me what to do. I needed biblical support to lead these people so that we carried out the great commission. I needed counsel and accountability. I needed brothers in arms, not against the congregation, but in support of the congregation. I did not want to fail like this again. It was too painful, and too harmful to my church.
So, I turned to Scripture. I could not find chapter and verse to support my belief that 21st century pastors are really 2nd century elders. I found the equipping ministries of Ephesians and the overseer, teaching ministries of elders in 1 Timothy. I was confronted by the “plurality” of elders everywhere I looked. The thought of having a group of Biblically qualified, godly men helping me lead the congregation, helping me make sound decisions, holding me accountable and helping us all stay on doctrinal track was exciting.
The books I read about elders were good, but seemed too autocratic in their approach. So I stayed with Scripture. I and the deacons studied Scripture together for six months before we talked to anyone in the congregation. Then I taught the congregation for two months, had multiple question and answer sessions, and there was a vote. It was overwhelming. They agreed that we needed deacons who served and elders who led. We also agreed that elders did not preclude congregational input. We did not believe that the leadership of elders was to be demogoguery. The priesthood of the believer meant we would maintain our congregational government. The servanthood of deacons meant deacons would lead the church in service. The oversight of elders meant that they would guide the church and lead the church. No one would be on pastoral staff who was not qualified as an elder. The equipping offices would be respected and empowered. So, I am not above all, but I am “first among equals” on the elder council. That was six years ago. We are only one of a handful of SBC churches in Louisiana who has elders, and I’m pretty sure we’re the only one that is not distinctly Reformed or Calvinistic in nature. I pastor and lead, the elders help me do that, we pray together with our deacons as we serve this congregation. We meet for business at least six times a year. We vote in those meetings.
I just finished my 10th year as pastor. If it were not for the changes in polity, I would not be here. Whether or not it worked, is not my foremost concern. I believe it is Biblical. I’m not a polity-pundit, beating the elder drum. But, it works. We have biblically qualified men acknowledged by the congregation to lead. We have deacons who serve and pray with the elders for the church. I have been through tremendous change in our church since then with the counsel and support of these men who are as traditionally Baptist as any you will ever meet. Our church is healthier than it has ever been, and that health is producing growth.
The downside. Other Baptists are suspicious. I was anathema at associational meetings for awhile. Some who read this will no doubt think I have joined the enemy’s camp. I’m also not the big dog anymore. If you want to be the big dog, elders are not for you. If you want quick, you don’t want elders. We don’t charge into the battle until it is well thought out. If you want real, Scriptural counsel and leadership, I think that is what elders are.
Is this the only way to do it? In every church where there is health, there is this form of polity. Call it deacons. Call it church council. Call it church staff. It is not demogoguery. You can build earthly kingdoms around earthly demagogues, but they don’t last. Deacons or church council members who are not qualified to be elders may try to lead, but they fail. However, healthy pastors and healthy churches have Biblically qualified men as leaders; men who sharpen as iron sharpens iron. These leaders respect the people among whom they minister. They respect them as co-ministers. The co-ministers respect them as leaders. This works. I think it works because it’s God’s design.
If you’re interested in exploring this whole form of church life, a good book to read is Elders in Congregational Life, by Phil A. Newton. It is available at Lifeway Christian stores. Click on the link to check it out.



Brother Cyle,
Do you still have congregational votes or does the Board of Elders make the decisions and the congregation follows?
Blessings,
Tim
Cyle,
Did you preach sermons for two months on elder leadership? If so, would you share those sermons for research purposes?
Les
Tim,
Elders make many decisions that deacons would in most churches. Elders nominate all teachers for Sunday School. They approve all cell group leaders and leaders for other ministry areas. We have a maintenance ministry team that is given a budget and great leeway to take care of the physical plant, but their leader was agreed upon by the elders. Elders deal with any disciplinary issues, doctrinal issues. They lead in church discipline. Two times in the past 10 years we have removed someone from the church roll. That was led by the elders, but voted upon by the congregation. Elders lead the property committe, the finance committee, the special events committee, and the mission committee. The congregation votes on all membership issues, expenditures of funds outside of the budget, and major direction changes in the church; for example when we started cell groups on Sunday night. Ministry teams that are elder or non-elder led have leeway to plan and implement ministry in their areas. For example, the sports ministry team, the youth ministry team, the AWANA ministry, Angel Food, and the women’s ministry team all have non-elder leaders and make decisions for their own ministry areas, but still coordinate these through the elders. Anyone in our church is free to begin a ministry as long as it doesn’t interfere with another ministry and so long as the leaders are qualified and in good standing in the chruch. If they need funds, they bring them to the elders first. If the elders agree, they do it. Very seldom do they not agree. We’re about equipping, not controlling. If there is an ongoing need for funds, it goes to the finance committee. When I take off, and who fills the pulpit when I’m gone are mainly my decisions in consultation with the deacons. What happens in the day-to-day operation of the office are mainly my decisions.
Les,
I’ll try to find the computer copies of the manual I used originally to teach the deacons, elders, and congregation. I know I have it on hard copy, but am not sure how many hard drives ago it was on.
The problem you had was that you needed more strong leaders as opposed to followers.
Is there something etched in stone that says that either people on the church council and/or deacons must necessarily be “weak leaders”?
My queston boils down to this: “Was you problem due to a poor organizational structure or was it due to weak people serving in that structure”. Or more succinctly, what would have happened if the strong leaders that ended up being elders instead gravitated into positions as deacons or on the church council? In that case would
elders still be needed?
Implicit in your solultion is the recognition that deacon boards and/or church councils are necessarily “servants” or “weak”.
Cyle,
An excellent post. It expresses some of the struggles that we decided to avoid at Crossroads by having biblical leadership in the form of Elders. Without doubt, the biblical role of the deacon is grossly misunderstood in Baptist life.
Spiritual leadership through a plurality of elders has been, by far, the most peaceful, Spirit-filled church leadership model that I have ever experienced. Our model is a bit different, though, as we have only one actual “business meeting” planned each year. But if something requires congregational action, we call meetings of the body as necessary.
Congregational votes on everything from the color of the curtains to the brand of coffee in the kitchen is absurd … yet it has, most often, been the type of government that I have experienced throughout most of my Baptist life. I fear that the culture of “the vote” fools many people into thinking they have done their part for the Lord by casting a vote … and immobilizes a great number of Baptists from actually doing ministry.
The church is a body, not a business. Ministry must be its focus, not “maintenance” and administration.
Again, a great post. I wish you had saved this one for a weekday.
Roger,
I disagree with your statement “The problem you had was that you needed more strong leaders as opposed to followers.” There was some of that, in that all the current elders were deacons then. You might have expected them to step up, but they did not because they believed that deacons were not to run the church but to serve the church. Yes, some of them were timid, but they also were simply doing what they had been taught prior to my arrival. We believe that deacons are to lead through serving and elders are to serve by leading.
We had plenty of people willing to lead on the church council, but many of them were unqualified to direct the church. Most of them were women. We believe that women are not to be elders or deacons. Women currently lead in any ministry in our church where they do not have teaching or doctrinal authority over male leadership. Many of the men on the church council then did not have the character to qualify as either a deacon or an elder, but the church council was given the authority to direct the entire church. Today we have ministry leaders who lead their ministry teams or committees. The elder council, composed of men who qualify Biblically and who have been acknowledged by the entire church serve as the church council. Everyone has access and input to the Elder Council via any elder. We tried to have meetings where people came and talked to the elders, but that didn’t work well. Talking one on one with an elder does work well. And, one reason we have at least six business meetings a year is not to vote on things, but to get feedback on things. Often we break up our meetings into small groups, give them a leader and a sheet of paper, and ask them what’s going on, what needs to change, and what we need to do about particular issues. Elders & deacons do not serve themselves. They serve this church and they cannot do that if they are not listening. It would be nice if everyone had the boldness to come and voice their opinion in an Elder meeting. They do not, so we go to them. It’s not perfect, but it works well.
The Bible establishes clear and different qualifications for deacons and elders. Our problem was that we were not following the Biblical plan.
I neither meant nor intended to say that Church Councils and Deacon Boards are weak. I’m guessing that you would admit that many people serving on church councils do not qualify biblically to be deacons or elders. I’m guessing that you would agree that many who serve as deacns do not meet the qualifications of being an elder. I wish you could have been here then, and be here now. There are more people serving in more areas with greater freedom to serve than ever before. There is ministry going on all the time that I don’t have a clue about, and I don’t worry. I know we have qualified ministry leaders leading those areas. I don’t have to micromanage. We have ministries when we have ministers, and we have many ministers.
Cyle:
Thanks for the reply.
Your experience suggests there may — in fact — be a diferentiation between “elders” vis a vis “deacons” that we can capture from I Timothy and apply to the context of today’s church. I guess my default understanding was wrong. Namely, that in present day manifestations that elders and deacons are essentially the same OR possibly elders is a technical term used in the NT that today describes pastors.
In your context you already had: (1) Pastor, (2) church council, (3) deacons. So by creating elders you had backdrop upon which to compare / contrast the role of elders so that it could be seen as distinct.
It seems to me that many congregations could profit by the type of leadership model that your case study portrays.
Roger Simpson
Oklahoma City OK
Dear Cyle,
In the spirit of goodheartedness it is so much easier to find agreement than offer a differing point of view. As I read your piece and the comments, I must admit that I was left with more questions than answers in your experience at Many, Louisiana.
The first of which is do you believe that by installing an elder led congregation that this is a question of obedience to God?
And secondly if your answer is yes, is the logical extrapolation that for 162 years the vast majority of Southern Baptist Churches have been operating in disobedience?
If your answer is no, then does that mean that God is indifferent as to whether or not one operates with Elders or Deacons.
To understand your situation, one needs to know how you answer that question, is instituting an elder led congregation an act of obedience or not? yes or no
If the answer is yes, then you probably are not in very good company in your association and convention where no such belief exists.
If your answer is no, then your decision is one made by men as a matter of choice.
If it is a matter of choice, then there must be some circumstance at your particular church that is perhaps peculiar.
Do you believe that calling someone an elder as compared to a deacon bestows some special annointing from God different from one to another, with a special set of gifts or knowledge in that annointing?
That’s an honest question, not a trap.
If you do not believe that is so and do not believe having an elder system is an act of obedience with the converse being true, then what you have is a reorganization.
I’ve been a deacon for almost 40 years and have seen pastor upon pastor attempt to put a square peg in a round hole as far as deacons are concerned. Inevitably there are good deacons and not so good deacons and most of the time there are too many to ever be able to have a confidential conversation about anything. Probably no part of the church has had more effort exerted in finding something useful for a group of folks to do that they will agree to do.
And the truth is in larger churches, the staff runs everything anyway which is not nearly as bad as it sounds if there is a good budget and budgeting process and there is good followthrough and appropriate oversight.
The truth also is that in many situations moving to an elder system was a way around too many cooks in the kitchen, not from some spiritual revelation.
I looked at the Louisiana web site and noticed that your church is like so many other good and faithful Southern Baptist churches likely fairly small.
There is a rule in Southern Baptist Life that is immutable and far more applicable in a smaller church than a larger one: The church is the cheapest place in town to be a bigshot.
By deduction you can conclude that I am a traditional congregtionalist. Equally important and attendant to that same viewpoint is the respect for the autonomy of each individual church. And if Calvary Church in Many Louisian wants to have an Elder system, that is fine by me. There is nothing in the scripture that says there is anything wrong with that.
But we must ask ourselves does that begin to suggest it is superior and if so why? Or is it just the choice of an individual congregation. There is enormous tension in the answer to that question.
What makes the difference in every situation is leadership, not organization. If the reason you want to change to an elder system is to as someone pointed out prevent the voting on the color of the curtains, then you are using a howitzer where a flyswatter would work.
Maybe you are on the cutting edge. The older I get the more careful I’ve become in measuring the distance from my seat on the limb and the trunk of the tree.
I commend you for the courage to write about this fairly controversial issue and wish blessing on your church.
Dear Jerry,
Thank you for the questions and the insight.
I believe that Scripture teaches that each church should have elder/overseers, and that every church should have deacons. I also acknowledge that the best Biblical scholars have argued convincingly on both sides of the issue of “the elders are really pastors” and “the pastor is one of the elders.” That is why I am not dogmatic about this.
I believe in the form, regardless of the title. I believe deacons are to lead by serving, and elders are to serve by teaching and leading. My grandfather was a faithful Baptist deacon for over 50 years. He was in no way qualified to teach, nor did he ever want to teach or lead the church. That is the primary difference between elders and deacons in Scripture. He just wanted to help people and help the church.
The reason I began the quest for “how to do church” was because we had tried “my way or the highway” and it failed. Our elders were established to guard against bigshot mentality. They do not have bigshot mentality today. What we do have is biblically qualified deacons and biblically qualified elders leading and serving our church. We no longer have unqualified people leading the church as a whole. This has not restricted the congregations voice. It has empowered and increased ministers.
Baptists seem to fear elders because they fear that elders will take away the congregations ability to vote. Our issues were not the color of the curtains. However, we are about to remodel our kitchen and no one even asked what color it would be when we all voted to approve the plan as developed by the remodeling committee that was chaired by an elder. Our plan is to ask the decorating committee to pick out the colors, and we won’t vote on that.
I don’t think I’m on the cutting edge. If anything, we attempted to be on the ancient edge. The current Baptist tradition was cutting edge at one point. Now it is sacred tradition.
If I may ask, why would you not want this form of church government? And I’m not trying to imply that you should. I’d like to know.
Also, why is the current Baptist tradition superior? Is there any more or less Biblical support for Baptism by immersion than there is for traditional Baptist polity? And, by the way, I do believe in Baptism by immersion, but I’m not ready to call Methodists heretical because they don’t.
I would pastor a church without elders. I would look for those deacons who are doing the work of elders and rely upon them. They are already known in every church. Everyone on the board knows whose voice carries the most weight. The question is, “Is the person behind that voice qualified? Is he a bigshot or an overseer of the flock?”
Is being an elder a vocation or an avocation?
Cycle,
In the past I was opposed to the concept of a plurality of Elders in the Baptist church. I have recently changed my mind on this. I have recently approached my pastor about the possibility of implementing Elders in our church. I would be interested in the materials you used to teach your leaders and congregation on the subject.
It seems that for a church to grow beyond a certain size it must have a governmental structure that will function efficiently and effectively. A single Elder/Pastor structure really limits church growth because one man cannot do everything.
Cyle,
I just noticed after I posted my comment that I had misspelled your name. Please accept my apology.
Tom,
No problem with the mispelled name. My dad was a drill instructor when I was born, and one of his punishments for messed up soldiers was Kitchen Patrol (K.P.). My name is Cyle Paul and he didn’t want a K.P. Clayton. So they used a C instead and it’s messed me up ever since
Currently I am preaching at a revival meeting in Texas. When I get back to Louisiana, I will get materials for you and send them to you.
Cyle
I googled “women elders, Baptist” and didn’t find anything like what I was looking for, but I did find your conversation about introducing elders into your congregation. I belong to a Baptist church which definitely has elders, but they are not women! Emphatically. No discussion.
I have suggested to them that minimally, there should be a church meeting every 3-5 years so that anyone who’s not up on this topic can have the pastor shed a little light on where they find this info in the bible. Because, frankly, it’s extraordinarily insulting.
I’m not in a small, traditional Southern town where you can say, “Well, that’s just the way we do things around here.” I’m in a large suburb, and we’re just as likely to attract families who’ve never been to church as we are transplants from Southern towns. And you can’t expect a woman who’s been raised to be President of the United States or an astronaut to embrace this idea that she can’t be an elder. It’s literally a foreign concept. She’s not trying to be belligerent — she wants information, proof, if you will, that she is not qualified today, nor ever will be qualified, to be an elder.
I have certainly met people who were hunting for a church for their family to attend, and they have opted not to attend our church because women can’t be elders. Many of these women are making the church decisions for their families, and they choose other churches instead.
My problem is, if I get this blunt with my church leadership, I’ll blow my chance to ever be an elder (presuming that they one day change their policy) because they’ll see me as a difficult person.
I have decided to give up on being given the opportunity to do anything important in my church. I have quite the financial background, but the don’t invite women onto that council either.
Sure, I’ll still bake cookies and babysit for church members in need and study my bible and sing, but when it comes to using my brain, I understand now that I’m wasting my time in my Baptist church. I’ll just re-direct my energies into other non-profit and/or political organizations which have already welcomed my help.
What would you do with a person like me within your congregation? I pray about it, but I don’t get any clear answer, other than the fact that the LORD has been throwing the door wide open for me within the Republican Party. I am sort of mourning a future within church leadership that I will probably not experience.
God bless you all,
Crista
Crista, while I do not speak for all Southern Baptist or Baptist churches, I can say that in our rather large SBC church, our bookkeeper is a female. And so is her assistant. As far as working with finances, many churches allow women to work with finances–personnel, budget, etc. Sorry you are having a bad experience in your church. As far as elders go, it is not the norm for women to be elders in what are called conservative churches. However, there are churches that are moderate, and liberal who allow women to serve in the capacity you are interested in. Some do, some don’t. hope this helps a bit. selahV
selahV,
Thank you for your kind response.
I guess that I am having a good experience in my church, yet whining that I can’t get what I want. And it would be so much easier to get what I want and get busy with it, than to pray for God’s direction and wait, wait, wait. I’m Type A, have a lot to contribute, and want to get busy with it.
Ironically, I am not interested in exploring a moderate or liberal church.
I wish that I had come to the church 15 years earlier. I love the body of Christ.
Crista
Crista…ah the type A personality. Yes, the Lord does have fun molding the A-team members of His body. Waiting is not usually their strength–yet they are so steadfast and dependable. Diligent to their own detriment at times. You just hang in there Crista, God will put you exactly where He wants you and you will be the happier for it. Glad you stopped by us. selahV
Why no women elders? We can debate that, but suffice it to say that the Scripture overwhelmingly says they are to be men. Only men are allowed to be pastors, and elders and pastors are pretty much interchangeable.
That does not mean that women are not ministers. They are. By the way, it’s not just uneducated small town culture that accepts this teaching. Capital Hill Baptist Church in D.C. is full of some of the youngest and brightest and they also only allow only men to be elders or pastors.
If you attended our church, you’d probably be in charge of a ministry area. You wouldn’t have teaching authority over men, but you would have leadership responsibility. You would also probably be on the finance ministry, and possibly be our treasurer as two of the last three were women. I would encourage you to work within the Republican Party, if that is where you are called to glorify God. Let me cut to the chase here. If you came to me and said that you believed God was leading you to pastor a church, I would not tell you to go elsewhere and find a church that would allow that. I would spend time with you in the Scripture to show you that you had misunderstood your call. And, when you argued with me about it, I would allow that and would continue to show you the word.
I guess that I’m pretty much out of touch with other churches with elders. Apparently there has been alot of bad experience with controlling elders who do not allow discussion. Look, we’re going to deal with a divisive person, but division and disagreement are two completely different things. So, you might be labeled a royal pain, but unless you tried to tear up the church, sow division, encourage sin, or teach false doctrine, we’d just keep serving together.
Hi Cyle,
The “small-town church remark” isn’t about education, and it’s partly about admiration. There is a culture that some people experience where they have a belonging, where wise older people raise them, where young people are taught the old ways, where they are loved and in return they trust and respect their elders. I didn’t have one ounce of that. I have had to reexamine everything that I was taught and find better ways to do things.
So when I talk to my friends who grew up in that close, small-town way, and they say “that’s they way I’ve done it my whole life”, there’s a lot of charm and sentiment there for me.
Anyway, I don’t want to be a pastor. But at the same time, the LORD has given me incredible gifts. When I am aware of the kinds of decisions that our elders make, I know that I would fit in very well with groups of people that make those kinds of decisions, and I long for that, but I am shut out of that group, and I need to come to terms with that.
If I had grown up knowing that it was never going to be possible for me to be an elder, perhaps this would not be an issue for me. But I was taught that I would achieve nothing at all. And once I figured out that they were wrong, I’ve been barrelling on ahead for 25 years now. And it’s just now, at age 48, that I’m hitting that glass ceiling — a ceiling that I never experienced in the corporate world. (Expletive!)
So I need to regroup, and go in a different direction, and find a way to take this rejection and not let it dredge up all the rejection of my early life.
Thanks for all the discussion.
Crista
Crista,
Sounds like we have some common ground regarding issues of rejection. And, there are many ceilings. I’m a 45 year old pastor who has two degrees, but not from seminary. I have more university training than many with doctorates, but I do not have the title. And, I don’t have the time or resources to go back to school and get the paper that says I have the qualifications. As a result, many doors are closed to me. I, too, am learning to live in my own skin, and within the plan of God for my life. I don’t know what I’m trying to say except that I’d love to have you over to dinner with me and my wife. I’d love to have you serve in our church. If you ever move to Sabine Parish in Western Louisiana, please look us up.
C
Crista,
I think you must understand that the position of Elder and Pastor. An Elder’s duties are much more than just making decisions. They are called to safeguard the souls of those entrusted to them. They are responsible for equipping the saints for ministry. They have to be able to teach/preach.
God has a plan and purpose for all his children. He has gifted each of them for the ministry He has prepared for them. Once we find our gifts and find our calling then the joy we have is incredible. I would suggest that the frustration you are experiencing is not of God and the leaders in your church are not rejecting you..they are simply upholding the biblical mandates for the office of Elder.
I pray that you are able to find your calling and find your joy serving the LORD.
Hi Cyle
Did you ever find those manuals that you were going to pull out for Les back in 2007? I would really appreciate seeing them as I grapple with the eldership/deacon principle.
S
Hi Cyle, I wrote to you in ’07 as I was trying to find a place to fit in with our church. I wanted to let you know that I instead got involved with the Republican Party, have a strong leadership role, started a political newsletter which reaches 260 people and counting, and went to the RNC as a delegate.
Clearly I have energy and leadership skills — I just couldn’t find a way to use them at church, although they are very nice to me. My potential in politics is almost limitless, and I get to plan my own course without being ultra demure and polite. (I’m always reining myself in at church.)
The bulk of my fellow voters are Christians, so of course I’m still a strong Christian, but I needed MORE — you know what I mean?
Thank you and God bless you,
Crista
Cyle,
I would also like some information on how you did elders. I have been talking about it myself…